Miles Davis was Mediocre

[musicjohnny]

That is my honest opinion I have formed after having listened to many of his recordings. He was nowhere near the player that Clifford Brown or Baker were. In fact, on top of rather mediocre I find alot of his playing annoying and not in sync with everyone else around him.

I think his true talent lied in assembling a band as well as composing. The cat could put a band together like no one else on earth, but he couldn't even hang with the fellas he hired.

I spoke to Mr. Paul Bley about this when I had the pleasure of meeting him, and he told me that Miles Davis was nothing more than a sit in who turned famous because he was classically trained and could compose well. To my surprise, he said alot of cats who came up during the same time didn't think an awful lot of him either.

What do you guys think about this? Am I the only one or are there others?

[markf]

funny you post that I was watching a youtube of his group with carter shorter hancock williams, playing yesterday. Mile's solo stunk.

the band members looked they would rather be anywhere else.

yes, its definitely uncool to say, but I agree completely.

I don't like his playing, he needed to practice, feeble tone, bad chops, uninventive solos.

listen to some of the recordings with him in Charlie Parker's group, live at the royal roost, and such.

I actually can't listen to those, cause as brilliant as charlie is, as soon as he stops, I have to turn it off, can't stand mile's playing.

I think when people are being honest, they said precisely what you said, that he put a band together.

for technique, tone, everything, lots of trumpet players are /were a lot better than him.

There are some jazz guitar players around right now, that are in the same position, widely loved, but not very good.

there are posters at this forum, that are a lot better than some of the big names.

don't understand why this is.

[Stackabones]

He had such a long career & varied styles that I guess a good question to ask would be, Which Miles Davis was mediocre?

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Originally Posted by markf

there are posters at this forum, that are a lot better than some of the big names.

don't understand why this is.

because the big names are big communicators. blessed with means and motive.

[markerhodes]

I think the thread would better be titled "mediocre trumpet player." I think "mediocre" is harsh: he played some great solos and had a flair for making melodies sing. Granted, he played a lot of 'cracked' notes and I never bought the argument that they were all intentional.

Writing tunes is a *huge* gift, though, and Miles wrote a nice chunk of the active repertoire. And he lead more great bands than any one else in jazz history. He also moved jazz in new directions more than once, or twice, or even three times. (I didn't *like* all those directions, but I've got to give the man his due for innovation.)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Miles said, "it's hard to play slow." That said, I prefer Chet.

[Drumbler]

Miles was not a great trumpet player and I don't think anyone will dispute that.

He had the fortunate timing to be associated with some great ones like Charlie Parker, Dizzy. Just the close association with those guys burnished Miles rep and got him noticed.

In a similar way many later musicians had the good timing to play in Miles bands like Scofield, Corea, Coltrane, etc.

However Miles "greatness" was not as a technician but as an organizer of great bands and composer of great songs. He certainly had some talented players in his bands.

So Miles is in jazz heaven and deservedly so.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Miles was not a great trumpet player and I don't think anyone will dispute that.

He wasn't a great trumpet player in the same way that John Lennon wasn't a great guitar player. That being said, like Lennon, he was a force to be reckoned with. And a great composer. And a man of his times. And he played with great emotion.

There are plenty of people who can burn through rhythm changes in their PJs (or sometimes worse), film it with a shitty camera, and post it on youtube. Very few of them will ever change music. It's not always about who has the best chops. Plenty of guys you've never heard of can play circles around plenty of other guys you've never heard of. Most, if not all, you will never know exist.

Miles changed jazz and the way we think about jazz. He was great.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Miles is great on Sketches of Spain, right? Or am I deluded?

[mr. beaumont]

What's "mediocre?" His chops? His dexterity? His speed?

Sure. He'd have been the first to tell you.

But he was also brilliant in a lot of areas. Transcribe that solo on "So What." your not going to find many better.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by paynow

He wasn't a great trumpet player in the same way that John Lennon wasn't a great guitar player. That being said, like Lennon, he was a force to be reckoned with. And a great composer. And a man of his times.

There are plenty of people who can burn through rhythm changes in their PJs (or sometimes worse), film it with a shitty camera, and post it on youtube. Very few of them will ever change music. It's not always about who has the best chops. Plenty of guys you've never heard of can play circles around plenty of other guys you've never heard of. Most, if not all, you will never know exist.

+1 well put

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Miles is great on Sketches of Spain, right? Or am I deluded?

Great technically?

Dizzy Gillespie was great technically for example.

The comparison to John Lennon as a technician is appropriate.

[Stackabones]

So are we talking about chops? If you play slowly or not a lot of notes, then you're not technically proficient? It can't be that banal, can it?

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Stackabones

So are we talking about chops? If you play slowly or not a lot of notes, then you're not technically proficient? It can't be that banal, can it?

Yes.

[markf]

Originally Posted by Stackabones

So are we talking about chops? If you play slowly or not a lot of notes, then you're not technically proficient? It can't be that banal, can it?

I think that good chops is definitely an important part of being a good instrumentalist. specially in jazz. Keith Jarrett, Oscar Peterson, John Mclaughlin, etc. etc.

If that's all a player has, then yes the music would be boring.

I suppose there are a few highly regarded (by some people) jazz players that have bad chops. I don't mind that. But it's not the norm in jazz.

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by markf

I think that good chops is definitely an important part of being a good instrumentalist. specially in jazz. Keith Jarrett, Oscar Peterson, John Mclaughlin, etc. etc.

If that's all a player has, then yes the music would be boring.

I suppose there are a few highly regarded (by some people) jazz players that have bad chops. I don't mind that. But it's not the norm in jazz.

Doesn't seem to revolve around the concept of soloing & improvisation rather than the ability to swing? Of course we recognize Freddie Green as being a monster, but he's on a very short list of jazzmen who aren't known for their soloing chops.


Again, bad chops means you can't play fast? It can't be that silly & mundane, but maybe it is? Are we just like the metal shredders? Make those fingers wiggle and we're impressed!

I'd guess that compositional chops would have to count for something, too. At least, let's hope so.

[max_power]

Originally Posted by musicjohnny

I spoke to Mr. Paul Bley about this when I had the pleasure of meeting him, and he told me that Miles Davis was nothing more than a sit in who turned famous because he was classically trained and could compose well. To my surprise, he said alot of cats who came up during the same time didn't think an awful lot of him either.

I don't buy this. With all due respect to Paul Bley, I've read tons of interviews with tons of jazz artists, and many of them thought Miles was the shit (not "shit", "THE shit"). I don't want to get into the debate about Miles as a musician (since I'm one of those "Miles is GOD" people)... however, in terms of other famous musicians having poor opinions of Miles, I've never read or heard anything to this effect. I've heard and read of people dismissing his fusion period onwards, but never his entire career as a musician. Charlie Parker dug Miles' playing (according to Miles...however, he was in Parker's band for a number of years, so why should we think otherwise?), Dizzy did as well (and has specifically said so in interviews)...Duke Ellington wanted Miles to join his band at one point...everyone who was ever in Miles' bands from the mid 50s onwards have only GREAT things to say about him (and that list constitutes the majority of big names in jazz since the 50's)...Mingus thought he was great as well...Freddie Hubbard said that Miles could "really play", which was a statement he made in an interview without even being asked about Miles at all... etc. These are just off the top of my head right now, but with some digging I could find some more specific examples.

[Drumbler]

Duke Ellington wasn't the greatest piano player.

Miles wasn't the greatest trumpet player.

John Lennon wasn't the greatest guitar player.

But these guys are legends. They had personality and charisma and musical talent.

These guys were songwriters.

[Dark Star]

Originally Posted by paynow

He wasn't a great trumpet player in the same way that John Lennon wasn't a great guitar player. That being said, like Lennon, he was a force to be reckoned with. And a great composer. And a man of his times. And he played with great emotion.

There are plenty of people who can burn through rhythm changes in their PJs (or sometimes worse), film it with a shitty camera, and post it on youtube. Very few of them will ever change music. It's not always about who has the best chops. Plenty of guys you've never heard of can play circles around plenty of other guys you've never heard of. Most, if not all, you will never know exist.

Miles changed jazz and the way we think about jazz. He was great.

Yes, I agree completely. God bless Miles Davis! & a snappy dresser, too!

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Duke Ellington wasn't the greatest piano player.

Miles wasn't the greatest trumpet player.

John Lennon wasn't the greatest guitar player.

But these guys are legends. They had personality and charisma and musical talent.

And they wrote great tunes, too.

[bako]

Miles Davis played with a sound that was as close to a human voice as anyone. Like Chet Baker, they both found an individual voice within technical limitations far greater than Clifford Brown. Jim Hall has less physical prowess than Tal Farlow but they both found a way to express themselves within their abilities.What Miles can teach about note placement and use of space is as important as anything but only if you care about such matters. His contributions have helped shape what we think about jazz today. And yes those amazing bands do deserve much credit and praise.

[Banksia]

Miles taught me that the space between the notes was just as important as the notes themselves.

What other established jazz god would have hired John McLaughlin?

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by musicjohnny

I spoke to Mr. Paul Bley about this when I had the pleasure of meeting him, and he told me that Miles Davis was nothing more than a sit in who turned famous because he was classically trained and could compose well. To my surprise, he said alot of cats who came up during the same time didn't think an awful lot of him either.

What do you guys think about this? Am I the only one or are there others?

I dig Miles!

Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Carlos Santana and many others thought highly enough of Miles to appear in the documentary about him. You can have Paul Bley, I'll stick with those cats!

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by Banksia

Miles taught me that the space between the notes was just as important as the notes themselves.

Ain't that the truth!

Of course, nowadays the primary concern is with the space between the notes belonging to this or that mode.

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Miles is great on Sketches of Spain, right? Or am I deluded?

A+
I suffer from this same delusion. Nice, isn't it?
Yes, there are many horrors out there too. Any candidates for 'perfection'? Which 'god' did not have feet of clay, at any time, throughout their career? I can't think of many.
Listening to 'Sketches', I have trouble remembering that there is no guitar at all in there. Somehow I hear them 'implied'. (Damn, I think I'm turning into Reg..! )

[Shadow of the Sun]

The question about "chops" and if they can be reduced to "playing fast": as a former horn player (tuba, to be precise), 'chops' can be summarised as follows:

1. Range: If you can play as fast as lightening but only between middle C and F, no, you DON'T have chops.

2. Tone and Stability: the tonal nature of a sound comes from your pucker, basically, and how you're "buzzing" your lips. Similarly, you need to have a stable, consistent tone throughout the entire note. Lots of folks can play fast but when you make 'em slow down they sound like crap because while they've got okay attack they can't sustain it.

3. Tonguing: This is one of the two parts of "speed"; you need to be able to move your tongue to play multiple notes. As a tuba player, I couldn't tongue for crap, but that's okay because I was mostly playing "oom-pah". That said, the ability to play a triplet passage with triple-tounging is an impressive skill.

4. Fingering: the other part of playing fast- while you can't play a fast passage if you can't tongue the notes so they're clearly articulated, you're even worse off if you can't move your fingers fast enough to get the notes in the first place.

Of these, I'd say that Miles had a real strength in his fingerings- he could play pretty much any note in about 5 different ways, from everything I've read. I don't think his tonguing was particularly great, and I think his tone-and-sustain might have been a bit off, but he managed to make that a musical trademark of his. And his range was perfectly sufficient for what he played.

All in all: technically, I don't think Miles was the shit in the same way Bird or Diz were. But he still played good music.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

The comparison to John Lennon as a technician is appropriate.

I disagree. Miles knew a lot more about music than John Lennon did. (No offense to Lennon.) Miles was a better trumpet player than Lennon was a guitar player. Listen to some of the Charlie Parker recordings with Miles: Miles knew his way around the horn at the comparable age of Lennon doing "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and leaving the guitar solos to George Harrison.

As Mr. Beaumont pointed out, Mile's "So What" solo is a great one. When he came into his own, he soloed like a composer, which is no bad thing. I think it says a lot about Miles that he surrounded himself with *better* players and let them shine.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by bako

Miles Davis played with a sound that was as close to a human voice as anyone. Like Chet Baker, they both found an individual voice within technical limitations far greater than Clifford Brown. Jim Hall has less physical prowess than Tal Farlow but they both found a way to express themselves within their abilities.What Miles can teach about note placement and use of space is as important as anything but only if you care about such matters. His contributions have helped shape what we think about jazz today. And yes those amazing bands do deserve much credit and praise.

+1. And Tal, one of the fastest players ever, plays "fast" differently than ANYONE I've ever heard play fast. It's so specific and identifiable to him. It was born from the fact that Red Norvo hired him for his harmonic and melodic sense, not for his speed, but then Talmage very quickly figured out that Red liked to push the tempo and realized he would be embarrassed if he couldn't keep up. So he learned to play very fast in his own sort of organic way, some of it on the bandstand, and some in which you can hear him struggling on early recordings. And Tal Farlow has more chops than a butcher. The musicality came first. I read that Mingus also said he became a much faster player with Norvo. He too was always MUSICAL. All three are in my top list of favorites.

Jim Hall of course is outstanding and musical and I've heard him burn too:

Amazon.com: Interplay: Bill Evans: Music

Maybe not as fast as Tal, but he gets up at points. It's just not his main thing but he says so much without it being his main thing.

There's a famous story that he once told a student who had enormous technical prowess but lacked feel "Don't just do something; SIT THERE!

Tal and Jim were roommates at one point. I wonder if they ever had the "Do you think Miles can play?" debate...

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by bako

Miles Davis played with a sound that was as close to a human voice as anyone.

This is the most surprising comment (to me) on this whole thread. I speak as owner of at least two dozen Miles' recordings (-and I've heard lots of others that I don't own). He had a unique voice on the trumpet but I never thought of it as being "close to a human voice," ESPECIALLY for jazz. I thought his horn sound was UN-natural. (Beginning with no vibrato.) Also, his feel was very cool, more analytic than emotional.

That's not said in criticism. I like Miles. I just never thought I'd hear anyone say his sound was the closest a horn ever got to the human voice. Heck, I think Louis Armstrong would be a better vote for that award, as would Lester Young (-his duets with Billie Holliday are staggeringly good). I think *Coltrane* blew more human emotion through a horn than Miles ever thought about conveying. Again, this isn't a dig at Miles. I'm just very surprised to hear Miles singled out as getting a more human voice out of a horn than anyone else. Is it just me????

[ksjazzguitar]

It depends on what you think makes a jazz cat "great." If it's smoking chops, then Miles ain't the guy for you. Personally, I hate flashy "chops" players - to my ear it gets boring after a while. I listen to Miles for his subtlety, his musicality, his taste, his phrasing, his sense of composition, etc.

I guess it really depends on what quality you're judging him on. If you've defined someone like Brown as the archetype, then yeah, Miles is going to pale in comparison. But I think that there are other ways to judge a player. To my ear there are better ways to judge a player.

Peace,
Kevin