Most influential jazz musicians - all time

Drumbler · #1 11-28-2010, 08:18 AM

I pick three in chronological order:

Louis Armstrong

Charlie Parker

Miles Davis

What say you?

Andrés_G · #2 11-28-2010, 08:51 AM

John Coltrane.

docbop · #3 11-28-2010, 09:15 AM

Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Bill Evans
Wes Montgomery

oilywrag · #4 11-28-2010, 09:54 AM

Miles Davis
Charlie Parker
Wes Mongomery
John Coltrane

franco6719 · #5 11-28-2010, 11:57 AM

Oh sh.... Only four!!

I would say:

Louis Armstrong.
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane

Shadow of the Sun · #6 11-28-2010, 12:29 PM

Art Tatum and Coleman Hawkins would have to be two...

If only because they were primary influences on Bird, who influenced...Everyone.

JohnRoss · #7 11-28-2010, 01:12 PM

You'd think jazz was invented by Coleman Hawkins or Charlie Parker. What about this lot for 'influential'?:

W. C. Handy
Jelly Roll Morton
King Oliver
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Benny Goodman

ksjazzguitar · #8 11-28-2010, 02:06 PM

Sorry, can't just pick 3.

As simple as I can go would be:

Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Lester Young
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Kenny G.

OK, one of those was joke. Bet you can't tell which one.

Peace,
Kevin

JohnRoss · #9 11-28-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

OK, one of those was joke. Bet you can't tell which one.

It's Miles, isn't it?

oilywrag · #10 11-28-2010, 02:54 PM

Kevin it may be a joke but in the context of the OP.it may not be as daft as you think??? Good/Bad influence

Tom

ksjazzguitar · #11 11-28-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

It's Miles, isn't it?

Dang John, give others a chance to guess before you blurt out the answer!

Peace,
Kevin

backliner · #12 11-28-2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

...W. C. Handy
Jelly Roll Morton
King Oliver
Duke Ellington
Count Basie
Benny Goodman

As valid as any I could come up with.

cosmic gumbo · #13 11-29-2010, 07:52 AM

Buddy Bolden?

JohnRoss · #14 11-29-2010, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Buddy Bolden?

Ab-so-lute-ly.

derek · #15 11-29-2010, 09:51 AM

Most influencial? That is an easy one imo. Louie Armstrong is by far the most influencial jazz musician to ever live. I don't think it is debatable.

Mentions of Miles seems odd to me. Miles took jazz in more places than anyone else, but I don't hear people trying to sound like him really. He was more of a pioneer than influencer I think.

BTW, the mention of Kenny G is a riot! Thanks for the laugh this morning.

markf · #16 11-29-2010, 10:06 AM

1charlie parker
2 coltrane
3 charlie parker
4 coltrane

JohnRoss · #17 11-29-2010, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Louie Armstrong is by far the most influencial jazz musician to ever live. I don't think it is debatable.

Most things are debatable, Derek. What are we calling 'influential?' You seem to be talking about influential on other jazz musicians, and we could also talk about influential on the public, by either of which definitions Louis Armstrong is a pretty good candidate for the top spot, I agree. I thought we were talking about influential on the course of jazz, though, according to which either cosmic gumbo's Buddy Bolden or my King Oliver has a better claim - without Buddy Bolden, it is quite possible jazz would never have existed at all, and without King Oliver, it wouldn't have existed as we know it (plus, Louis Armstrong learned all he knew from King Oliver).

fumblefingers · #18 11-29-2010, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by franco6719

Oh sh.... Only four!!

I would say:

Louis Armstrong.
Charlie Parker
Miles Davis
John Coltrane

+1

max_power · #19 11-29-2010, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Mentions of Miles seems odd to me. Miles took jazz in more places than anyone else, but I don't hear people trying to sound like him really. He was more of a pioneer than influencer I think.

True, but influence is measured by more than just "who sounds like who". I don't hear anyone trying to sound like Louis Armstrong or Lester Young, but I also don't think anyone would doubt their influence.

I would say that Miles has had the most influence in terms of "approach" to music than any other musician.

derek · #20 11-30-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

Most things are debatable, Derek. What are we calling 'influential?' You seem to be talking about influential on other jazz musicians, and we could also talk about influential on the public, by either of which definitions Louis Armstrong is a pretty good candidate for the top spot, I agree. I thought we were talking about influential on the course of jazz, though, according to which either cosmic gumbo's Buddy Bolden or my King Oliver has a better claim - without Buddy Bolden, it is quite possible jazz would never have existed at all, and without King Oliver, it wouldn't have existed as we know it (plus, Louis Armstrong learned all he knew from King Oliver).

Of course, most everything is debatable. I just don't find much of one here. That is, assuming we agree on (as you point out) what influential means. No doubt about Bolden and Oliver, but you could also say the same about Jelly roll and a number of others.

derek · #21 11-30-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_power

True, but influence is measured by more than just "who sounds like who". I don't hear anyone trying to sound like Louis Armstrong or Lester Young, but I also don't think anyone would doubt their influence.

I would say that Miles has had the most influence in terms of "approach" to music than any other musician.

You don't hear anyone trying to sound like Pops now (though there certainly are some), but that wasn't true a generation ago. Just like everyone we idolize today on gutar totally copied Charlie Christain. There is no way to get away from his influence if you are a jazz guitarist. Herb, Wes, Grant, Barney, all confess to copying all of CC's solos. Guitarists are a pretty small fraction of the number of horn players who have come before us. That is to say, Pops influenced many more players than someone like CC.

I still see Miles as more of an inspiration than an influence, but maybe that is just semantics. Of course, in the bigger picture, all of these guys are links in the chain that gets us to where we are today. They all played their part, and as time goes by, we may see someone become more influential than Pops or Miles. I just know it won't be Kenny G.

oldane · #22 11-30-2010, 03:08 PM

Louis Armstrong
Coleman Hawkins
Lester Young
Charlie Parker
John Coltrane

Why not Duke and Miles?

Duke was so unique and one of the greatest ever in American music, but few took him directly as a model - maybe because he was in a class of his own and his music was so personal. Mingus attempted to write music with the approach of the Duke, but Mingus' music was - well, Mingus and not Duke.

And Miles - IMHO he didn't invent so much himself, but was very good at picking up trends early and make the most out of them. But maybe I'm biased because I'm not so fund of Miles' music. I wonder where Miles would have been in the hieracy if Clifford Brown hadn't died so young in that car accident.

ksjazzguitar · #23 11-30-2010, 03:14 PM

Does influence have to be obvious in the present to be real? There isn't any serious classical composer out there still trying to write like Bach, but his influence is still there, dissolved into the fabric of all music. Would there have been a Beethoven without Bach? A Chopin? A Wagner? A Louis Armstrong? In other words, if we built a time machine and went back and killed Bach as a child, how much future music would be different? We can only guess, but guess we can.

The same could be said in other fields, No one writes like Shakespeare anymore. Does that mean that he's not influential. No one makes movies like Charlie Chaplin anymore and almost all of Aristotle's science has been debunked. Does that mean that they were not influential? No, because without them, the next generation would have been entirely different, and the generation after that, etc.

I think that you have to look at their affect on their generation and the one that follows, and see how that fits into the path that got us to where we are then. The fact that no one plays like Satchmo anymore is irrelevant (IMHO) since without him there would have been no Bird (not as we know him today.) And with out Bird, no Miles. Without Miles, no Trane. Etc.

Just my thoughts on how we should define "influential."

Peace,
Kevin

Drumbler · #24 11-30-2010, 03:24 PM

Interesting that no one since Coltrane has been mentioned.

As far as I can note from the posts.

No one influential since 50 years ago? Interesting.

Oh, wait...Kenny G.

JohnRoss · #25 11-30-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumbler

No one influential since 50 years ago? Interesting.

Well, we're to-ing and fro-ing a bit, that's the fun of a discussion like this. This is a heavily jazz-school-style-learning orientated forum and the first few posts were correspondingly bebop weighted, so I deliberately threw a few Dixie and Swing names in, just to remind people that jazz didn't begin with Charlie Parker. The reverse is true, as well, it didn't end in 1960, either:

The Modern Jazz Quartet (at least half of it)
Miles
Ornette Coleman
Keith "the cat's on the piano again" Jarrett
and on our own instrument
John McLaughlin and, of course,
Pat 'blast his eyes' Metheny

ksjazzguitar · #26 11-30-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Interesting that no one since Coltrane has been mentioned. ...

I noticed that too. Maybe because jazz hasn't been such an "important" music form since then. Maybe because there have been fewer "superstars" and more just generally great players. Or maybe we need some historical perspective to gauge influence. IDK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Oh, wait...Kenny G.

(Sigh) I knew I'd end up regretting it.

Peace,
Kevin

dr. frums · #27 11-30-2010, 10:15 PM

As far as jazz influences, here are mine; Santana, Miles Davis, and Al Di Miola.

fumblefingers · #28 11-30-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr. frums

As far as jazz influences, here are mine; Santana, Miles Davis, and Al Di Miola.

With all due respect, Carlos and Al are mis-categorized my friend. I believe that they would not argue. At least Carlos that is.

max_power · #29 12-01-2010, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Interesting that no one since Coltrane has been mentioned.

As far as I can note from the posts.

No one influential since 50 years ago? Interesting.

I may be mistaken, but I can't think of anyone who has had a profound impact on the jazz scene as a whole since that era. There have certainly been influential musicians since then, but not to the same extent that guys like Coltrane, Miles, Bird etc had.

Drumbler · #30 12-01-2010, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_power

I may be mistaken, but I can't think of anyone who has had a profound impact on the jazz scene as a whole since that era. There have certainly been influential musicians since then, but not to the same extent that guys like Coltrane, Miles, Bird etc had.

I agree.

There have certainly been tremendous musicians since that time. Many, many great artists.