Grant Green - can someone explain his popularity

musicalbodger · #1 10-13-2010, 05:36 PM

Please. I know the guy can groove but I find his playing very limited harmonically and not very imaginative.

Jazzaluk · #2 10-13-2010, 05:45 PM

Grant was a great interpreter. He embellished melodies with taste, clarity and elegance, and always a sense of the blues. Like all true artists he made it seem easier than it really is. What's not to like?

musicalbodger · #3 10-13-2010, 05:52 PM

Thanks Jazzaluk.

So point me towards some of his recordings which demonstrate this.

I'm not being obtuse here. I see many people raving about him on this forum and I just don't get it.

max_power · #4 10-13-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Please. I know the guy can groove but I find his playing very limited harmonically and not very imaginative.

Harmonic complexity, or lack thereof, doesn't necessarily make someone a good or bad player. Louis Armstrong's playing is pretty limited harmonically, FYI.

Grant Green could swing his ass off, and his playing was always melodic and tasteful. And bluesy as hell. That's why I like him.

musicalbodger · #5 10-13-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_power

Harmonic complexity, or lack thereof, doesn't necessarily make someone a good or bad player. Louis Armstrong's playing is pretty limited harmonically, FYI.

Mmmm. Louis Armstrong's intro to Potato Head Blues hits every note in the chromatic scale. And we are talking pre bebop, even pre swing, FYI. Grant Green is post bebop, post hardbop and the birth of the cool.

I never said that harmonic complexity makes someone a good player but it can make them interesting. I just asked, why all the fuss. Yes, he could swing (I used the term, groove) and he was bluesy but I find his playing limited and I don't get excited by him. I was hoping someone could finger some of his playing which they consider outstanding.

Jazzyteach65 · #6 10-13-2010, 07:06 PM

If you can tell me he doesn't swing here:

YouTube Video

He is popular for many reasons:
1. His use of motifs, his distinct sense of usage of rigid rhythms, almost Monkish in some aspects.
2. His melodic embellishment. -just as Miles, Wes, Bill Evans ect, Grant was terrific at embellishing heads, themes and quotes.
3. His fusion. He wasn't a traditional jazz guitarist in the sense of his predecesors, he was fusing tradition with funk, grooves and soul rhythms. He got this sound while working in so many organ trios. At his time, organ trios were fairly new in the sense of the guitarist, so he was a pioneer at that.

His phrasing, he does use certian devices, ideas and quotes often, but he does play altered harmony in his lines:

YouTube Video

paynow · #7 10-13-2010, 08:36 PM

What CD's of his do you have? I'll recommend some once I know what you have; if you list ones that I would tell you to get then there's not much I can offer as you won't be convinced.

I didn't like him at age 17, when I first started playing guitar. At age 45 I love him. He's extremely musical, which I really didn't get back then as my only concern was "who's the fastest". Yeah, he may not be the most harmonically complex but there's something about his feel that I really love.

max_power · #8 10-13-2010, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Mmmm. Louis Armstrong's intro to Potato Head Blues hits every note in the chromatic scale. And we are talking pre bebop, even pre swing, FYI. Grant Green is post bebop, post hardbop and the birth of the cool.

Using chromatic notes while playing diatonically is not an example of harmonic complexity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

I was hoping someone could finger some of his playing which they consider outstanding.

I really like the album "Green Street".

nomelite · #9 10-13-2010, 09:50 PM

Matador is another classic.

4thstuning · #10 10-13-2010, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Thanks Jazzaluk.

So point me towards some of his recordings which demonstrate this.

I'm not being obtuse here. I see many people raving about him on this forum and I just don't get it.

I never got GG either but that's not saying he's bad, only that he's not my cuppa tea. After a minimum competence has been reached, it's all subjective and essentially unarguable.

It's better to focus on what you do like and forget about the rest. If you're missing something, and I'm not saying you are, you'll get back around to it when you're ready.

Little Jay · #11 10-14-2010, 12:50 AM

Green bridges BB King and Wes Montgomery.
Sometimes less is more.
Why does jazz always has to be complex?
I appcreciate haute cuisine, but sometimes I like fish and chips better.....

Foulds Jazz Guitars · #12 10-14-2010, 01:58 AM

YouTube Video

This is probably my favourite Grant solo, the cheeky motif he uses over the Gm7-C7 allows the whole thing to hang together and he does superimpose a side slipping Emaj sound over the final C7 which resolves to the tonic F so I'd say thats a hip sub for the time and place.

Grants da man!

Foulds Jazz Guitars · #13 10-14-2010, 02:01 AM

My transcription

musicalbodger · #14 10-14-2010, 03:42 AM

Thanks guys for all your responses. Don't have time to answer anything today, but I will shortly.
Bodge

jelle99 · #15 10-14-2010, 05:54 AM

well... as others said: what's not to like ?? :-)
above all, GG has got a mean timing
also, during his solo's, he's often "shifting beats" when repeating a motif, yet he never gets lost and his timing never suffers... try this yourself, this isn't easy :-)
my favourite albums: idle moments (with joe henderson), and the complete quartets with sonny clark
also check out his funk songs like 'ease back' and 'sookie sookie'

mr. beaumont · #16 10-14-2010, 08:55 AM

check out:

green street-- masterful, miles-like uses of space
matador-- this one will answer questions about him being "limited"
talkin' about-- and so will this one
idle moments--classic
feelin' the spirit-- another classic
complete quartets with sonny clark-- he plays inside, but if the bluesy repetitve figure on "ain't necessarily so" makes art blakey say "hell yeah," then something good's going on.

and then, for something totally different, live at the lighthouse.

grant had soul. It wasn't hamonically complex or daring, and he wouldn't blow anyone away with technique. But grant had a touch, a unique tone and approach, and a lot of "intangibles" that make him so enjoyable for me to listen to.

Plus, the dude was cool.

FatJeff · #17 10-14-2010, 09:15 AM

I never really cared for his playing either...I've mentioned this in other threads. I thought I was the only one on this forum that harbored that opinion.

For me, the things I don't like are his string attack (he's very "picky" and doesn't really approach individual notes with legato), and his overuse of certain licks. I'm not bashing the guy, he was Blue Note's go-to guy for guitarists. Just not my favorite player.

derek · #18 10-14-2010, 10:00 AM

I am a GG fan, and am not going to be able to add to much to the party, but I do agree with everything posted so far about him. He also had a pretty staccato attack, which sometimes people react to. The other thing is, he is one of the most accessable jazz guitarist, particularly for players coming from a blues or blues/rock approach. I think if you hear that stuff, it is easier to 'get' GG.

A very unique voice in jazz guitar, where it is pretty tough to have such.

musicalbodger · #19 10-14-2010, 10:50 AM

Thanks again, guys for all the posts. Much appreciated. I do want to answer the various points you all make and thanks for posting all the suggestions for my listening pleasure. Got to rush as I've a gig tonight. I'll be back here tomorrow.
Bodge

Flyin' Brian · #20 10-14-2010, 11:11 AM

I had to transcribe his Green Dolphin Street solo. It was very sneaky the way he wove in and out of some of those changes. I too am not a fan of his attack. It's not quite legato enough, especially when he tends to pick all of the notes in triplets instead of using hammer ons and pull offs.

But he was certainly his own man.

max_power · #21 10-14-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

I had to transcribe his Green Dolphin Street solo. It was very sneaky the way he wove in and out of some of those changes.

Yeah! In particular I like the lick he plays at the end of the first "B" part over the Gbmaj7 | Bb7 | Ebmaj7. After I learned it I said to myself "this lick is great, but how often am I going to be in a situation where I can do this?" As it turns out, this chord progression isn't uncommon in bebop (2-5-1, then 5-1 in a key a minor third down). So I'll get some mileage out of it.

But I digress.

Stratocaster · #22 10-17-2010, 04:34 AM

I second "Matador."

GG used a Gibson guitar loaded with P90's. I think it may be the reason why he tends to pick every note. P90 pickups, especially the early ones can sometimes be rather weak. So GG really had to dig in to be heard.... especially over a loud busy drummer like Elvin on Matador.

Just a guess on my part. It's also possible he had shitty weak amplifiers too.

musicalbodger · #23 10-17-2010, 05:27 AM

Once again, thanks for all the suggestions. I'm listening to the Complete Quartets on Spotify as I write what is gong to be a long post.

First, for those of you who presume that just because I don't get someone means I think they're bad, I'm not that shallow or arrogant. I fully appreciate there are great talents out there who don't reach me, it's what happens in art.

OK, so, before I start, you've opened my ears to much stuff I hadn't heard — got a lot more listening to do but I listened to a selection from all the suggestions and I realise that I have missed out on much good stuff.

Jazzyteach — thanks for the vids. I think these highlight one of the aspects of his playing that I don't appreciate, i.e. he's often sloppy in his articulation (his heroin problem to the fore??)
Paynow — I don't have any of his albums, although I've been buying and listening to jazz since the late '60s.
Max & nomelite — thanks for the suggestions, haven't got around to them yet but I will.
4thstunning — I'm always up for learning about things I don't understand but am interested in, otherwise you'll never know what you're missing.
Little Jay — to my ear he's a straight line descendant from Charlie Christian, not too sure about the BB bit.
Dan @ Foulds — thanks Dan for the vid AND the transcription, much appreciated. Haven't had time to check out the transcription yet but I will.
jelle99 — what's not to like? Well, sloppy articulation at times, almost painful tone at times and staccato picking technique. That said, since starting this thread I've been shown another side to his playing.
Mr B — thanks for all the suggestions, I've stuck most of them on my Spotify playlist. Am really enjoying "Quartets with Sonny Clark" as I write. This is GG that I had never heard

.
FatJeff — I would have agreed with you a few weeks back but as I write I'm listening to Little Girl Blue and towards the end of his solo most half the notes are slurred. A bit cliched but nicely done and that was then after all.
Derek — thanks for the input. Can't add much except that, if you've read this far, I'm preferring his Sonny Clark to anything else I've heard so far.
Flyin' Brian — thanks for the head up Green Dolphin Street, appreciated.

So, I guess the reason I've never appreciated him is that,

1. I only picked up on his funkier side which, to my ear, hasn't aged terribly well. Reminds me somewhat of '60s porn soundtracks (not that I've ever seen any mind you, but I've been told that's what they sound like

)

2. I realise I was put off by the staccato attack and sharp tone, some of his notes are painful they're so piercing. Reminds me of why I don't listen to much Don Cherry and his pocket trumpet.

3. As I mentioned to Little Jay, I find him to be a direct descendant of Charlie Christian and as I was into CC very early on, I guess when I got to hear GG I wanted more and, at that point, was listening to Kessel, Pass, Wes, Hendrix, etc. Then moved on to McLaughlin, Sco, Frisell and now find there's too many good new players to keep tabs on.

So, thanks guys, for filling a hole in my appreciation and knowledge. Appreciated.

musicalbodger · #24 10-17-2010, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stratocaster

I second "Matador."

GG used a Gibson guitar loaded with P90's. I think it may be the reason why he tends to pick every note. P90 pickups, especially the early ones can sometimes be rather weak. So GG really had to dig in to be heard.... especially over a loud busy drummer like Elvin on Matador.

Just a guess on my part. It's also possible he had shitty weak amplifiers too.

Thanks Stratocaster. Interesting point re. the pickups. Sounds logical.

franco6719 · #25 10-17-2010, 06:35 AM

his playing very limited harmonically.

That's the APPEAL, I think.

Little Jay · #26 10-17-2010, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Little Jay — to my ear he's a straight line descendant from Charlie Christian, not too sure about the BB bit.

Oh, I only meant he's somewhere between a more simple blues-approach and and the more melodically and harmonically complex jazz, I just picked the first bluesguy and jazzman that came to mind....

Glad you like GG a little better now!

paynow · #27 10-17-2010, 07:43 AM

Take a look at this (the links goes straight to his discography):

Grant Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's also interesting to note how many guys he was a sideman for.

Here's a Stanley Turrentine CD I have on which GG was a sideman:

Rough 'n' Tumble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love it.

Grant was basically the Blue Note house guitarist and played with a lot of major artists; I think if they didn't like his playing or they felt he wasn't cutting it he would not have been used.

musicalbodger · #28 10-17-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paynow

Take a look at this (the links goes straight to his discography):

Grant Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's also interesting to note how many guys he was a sideman for.

Here's a Stanley Turrentine CD I have on which GG was a sideman:

Rough 'n' Tumble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love it.

Grant was basically the Blue Note house guitarist and played with a lot of major artists; I think if they didn't like his playing or they felt he wasn't cutting it he would not have been used.

Thanks for that, paynow.

I was aware of his credentials, I posted because I wanted some pointers as I'd never enjoyed what I'd heard. I'll check out the cd.

princeplanet · #29 10-17-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Green bridges BB King and Wes Montgomery.
Sometimes less is more.
Why does jazz always has to be complex?
I appcreciate haute cuisine, but sometimes I like fish and chips better.....

But it only takes months to simulate the improv style of BB, whereas it would presumably take several lifetimes to learn to improv like Wes. GG is way closer to BB than he is to Wes, IMO, and anyone who feels comfortable with pentatonics and blues scales probably won't marvel too much at the imagination and scope of GG's ideas, although to be fair, he does indeed show from time to time that he was in control of at least a few sophisticated harmonic concepts, but he obviously preferred to lean on his bluesy noodling for much of what he had to say.

Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat....

jayx123 · #30 10-17-2010, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But it only takes months to simulate the improv style of BB, whereas it would presumably take several lifetimes to learn to improv like Wes. GG is way closer to BB than he is to Wes, IMO, and anyone who feels comfortable with pentatonics and blues scales probably won't marvel too much at the imagination and scope of GG's ideas, although to be fair, he does indeed show from time to time that he was in control of at least a few sophisticated harmonic concepts, but he obviously preferred to lean on his bluesy noodling for much of what he had to say.

Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat....

At lease from the video posted here he sound a lot more like charlie christian then BB, listen again to the ATTYA video, I don't think it resembles BB playing at all.