Grant Green - can someone explain his popularity

[paynow]

Originally Posted by davekain

Also, I started writing because I really got sick of every Tom, Dick and Harry correcting me on what "they" thought were the correct changes to whatever standard was being played at the time. I figured, if I wrote the changes, NOBODY is gonna tell me the correct way of playing my own tune

Dave

I have a friend in Yonkers who will tell you the changes are wrong, even if you wrote it: "That should be an E flat!!" even though you wrote it as G. You're close by; if you'd like I can introduce you two. He could use a good talking to.

[exarctly]

Wow was I late catching on to this thread! I have long been interested in discussing Green. I still want to chime in with my thoughts.
First of all. One of my favorite guitar players, at least some of the time.
Whoever mentioned the "I wish you love" solo, I love that one too. Listen to it a lot. Matador, Street of Dreams, Idle Moments, Matador are all great and there are others that can go on that list. Quartets with Sonny Clark, I am not as much a fan of (it is good though), and the funk stuff I can enjoy for a few minutes, but then find boring. Not great music.

That said, I also at times wonder about Green's competency. I will always love him, because I take "soul" and phrasing above technique every day. But of all the guitar players I love (and I love his tone too) he is the only one that seems to have as many incidences where it sounds like he is struggling to complete ideas or flubs notes or repeats certain things maybe a little too much. Sometimes I love his double time, sometimes it sounds too stiff or forced, and admittedly he has some ability to play up tempo, but seems a little limited technique wise, and harmonically perhaps he doesn't push the envelope like other players I like.

But even with some of these flaws (though some of that is not 'flaw', as playing does not need to be complicated to be good) I really like him. Some of the 'limitations' even make me like him more because he is more human than someone like Pat Metheny. Though I like him much of the time too.

The Wes comparison is interesting culturally,and for the sake of discussion but not really one that is interesting observation wise, but where you can not make to many total conclusions. I find them both great for different reasons. I think Wes was a better player and deserves to be considered such, but I like Green's records more because of the sideman and really laid back feel he could get. I wish Wes had made records with Elvin Jones or Hutcherson or Larry Young. Now I know Wes had good sideman too (like MD's quintet rhythm section), and please if you prefer those classic 50's style this is just my opinion but I simply prefer the rhythm section playing of jazz of the 60's to the 50's. So while I might like Wes better as a player (though even this I can not say for sure) I like Green's best records more than Wes' best records pound for pound. It is hard to give Green credit for that or punish Wes for it, since it was more out of their control or more based on the time and situation they came from. Though I know that Wes actually did sit in with Coltrane, but I think it was too much for him or his taste at the time (like Benson sitting in with the second MD quintet). I would love to see what could have been if they kept going, but maybe it was for the best for all of them. Though I do like that Coltrane/Burrell record, but that came out a little earlier I think.

Benson is probably more technically gifted than both of them, but his career is even more confusing to make sense of. I take Green over Benson, but interestingly enough I would rather be able to play Benson's licks and feel at times. I would just not use it in the same way. I would blend it into my preferred style, which leans more toward Rosenwinkel and Scofield.

[FatJeff]

Well said, exarctly. Well said indeed.

[exarctly]

Thank you very much.

[whatswisdom]

Now that's a gal with taste!
[/quote]

[mr. beaumont]

That's easily in the "top 5 pictures ever posted on this site."

Maybe I got a soft spot for the little'uns since I got one on the way, but that's a cool kid right there.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

That's easily in the "top 5 pictures ever posted on this site."Maybe I got a soft spot for the little'uns since I got one on the way, but that's a cool kid right there.

Congrats!!! Boy or Girl? First time?

[nakim55]

How about in one word. > SOUL.

[JonnyPac]

Love the pic, WW.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Love the pic, WW.

Yeah, JP. Cool to see you back on here more. BTW, the picture is kinda neat in that it answers the question of this thread's title...

[JonnyPac]

Thanks! For sure.

[Little Jay]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Now that's a gal with taste!

[/quote]

That's my daughter, I'm proud to say! She's two now and loves whatever record I play on that old Philips radio/record player (it's from 1956! And contains more tubes than my Twin Reverb ;-)

[whatswisdom]

That's my daughter, I'm proud to say! She's two now and loves whatever record I play on that old Philips radio/record player (it's from 1956! And contains more tubes than my Twin Reverb


Awesome! Lucky guy. And you win the prize for sharing the best photo I've ever seen on this forum. Be sure to teach her some single note improv...

[Little Jay]

Thank you!She is showing a lot of interest in playing guitar and singing, so I have high hopes....

[JonnyPac]

Wow- didn't realize it was not stock. GREAT SHOT! Really wonderful.

[Loobs]

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Green bridges BB King and Wes Montgomery.
Sometimes less is more.
Why does jazz always has to be complex?
I appcreciate haute cuisine, but sometimes I like fish and chips better.....

Exactly. Grant's playing is wonderful.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Loobs

Exactly. Grant's playing is wonderful.

I second the motion.

I have noticed that many Jazz artists just have to keep pushing the boundaries, going further and further out in dissonance and experimentation with different harmonic structures.

Kind of like people on the food channel that are forever searching for different types of foods and ways to prepare them. They will never be content to stay with one cuisine.

I am not knocking them. But, I would tell them the same thing I would tell many of the Jazz cognescenti - be careful that you don't let your passion for the new and different cause you to look down on those who are happy with the what they already have. I say to each his(or her) own.

They say when you are on your deathbed you won't be seeing images of the different foods you ate, vacations you took, or Jazz concerts you gave -you will see images of the people you touched - whether negatively or positively.

OK. I am off the soapbox again. Time to get some coffee...

[Loobs]

Yeah, I think unfortunately, especially in jazz, people often scoff at players who aren't the most outside sounding, or are more traditional. I think GG's playing is timeless and beautiful. He phrased beautifully, his tone and ensemble playing were both stellar.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Loobs

Yeah, I think unfortunately, especially in jazz, people often scoff at players who aren't the most outside sounding, or are more traditional. I think GG's playing is timeless and beautiful. He phrased beautifully, his tone and ensemble playing were both stellar.

Very true. Some people come to jazz for beauty and others for raw excitement. ...and a lot for a mix of both.

[Little Jay]

No matter how much technical skills you throw into music, it's still about emotion and feeling (soul!). Grant put a lot of soul in his playing, and his soul is very much mine I guess, so that's why I like his playing.

[Jazzpunk]

I asked Sheryl Bailey for some ideas on what to transcribe next and here was part of her response:

"I love Grant the most to really experience a deep, soulful swing groove. He can drive you a bit crazy trying to notate, but he's easy to hear and super fun! Try something like "Blues in Maude's Flat" or "Green Jeans"."

Just another subjective opinion but I respect her a lot as a player and a teacher so I thought I'd add her comments to the mix here.

[jmstritt]

This is pretty interesting, because I have never been a big Grant Green fan in the past. I don't have any of his albums as a leader, all though I do have some Hank Mobely albums that he plays on.

My takeaway from the thread is this... We all go through phases in our development as artists. I have always loved Wes Montgomery, but pretty much everybody else I have had times where I loved them and hated them. When I heard Imaginary Day by Pat Metheney I couldn't stand PM and I thought that anybody who listened to him was just wasting their time. Then I heard Question and Answer. Whoa! At first I was marveled by Joe Pass and NHOP on the album Chops! Now when I listen to it, it just sounds superficial, and kind of boring. The point, yes there is one coming, is that sometimes you need to take a break from something and listen again with a fresh set of ears. I have started to listen to some GG after following this thread and I have found the strangest thing... I like it! Go figure! The thing that attracts me to GG is that he is about making good music. Sometimes that means hip chord subs and lines, sometimes it doesn't. He won't ever be considered on the level of a Joe Pass, but heck I would rather listen to Grant Green than Joe Pass, so what does it matter?

Just to keep this whole thing going...

Grant Green:
Hank Mobely, Workout!

Wes Montgomery:
Cannonball Adderly and the Poll Winners
Boss Guitar
Far Wes
Full House
Guitar On the Go
The Increadible Jazz Guitar
Smokin at the Half Note
So Much Guitar!

And to introduce a new wrinkle...

George Benson:
Beyond the Blue Horizon
Breezin
George Benson In Concert at Carnigie Hall
In Flight
The Quartet and Masquerade

I'm downloading GG the Complete Quartets with Sonny Clark right now, so we will add some more GG to my list! ;-)

[mr. beaumont]

You're gonna love that Sonny Clark stuff, I guarantee.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You're gonna love that Sonny Clark stuff, I guarantee.

Alright, if I don't I'm gonna come looking for you! LOL

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You're gonna love that Sonny Clark stuff, I guarantee.

It's great. Just re-listened to it yesterday. Straight-ahead jazz goodness.

[jmstritt]

Yeah I listened to the Quartets with Sonny Clark stuff last night and this morning. I dig it. GG still probably isn't my favorite player, but I can definitely see myself listening to this stuff more.

[cjm]

I never thought Grant Green was the world's greatest soloist. Not by a mile.

But I admire what he was...perhaps more than I admire some of the players I do consider to be the most exciting and inspiring soloists.

Because Grant Green was an excellent "all around" guitar player. Because it never sounded like he was more interested in setting up his next solo than he was in doing the best he could to make the other players sound their best when it was their turn in "the spot light."

Some of the very best and most famous guitarists (according to how we tend to rate things), were/are pretty mediocre as team players and were often horrible when forced to comp or play rhythm in a combo.

I mean, I'm not saying that most guitar players are inherently narcissists -- but only because most guitar players wouldn't understand because they think the word inherent means to receive money from some dead guy and that narcissism refers to stealing flowers from some one's garden before thumbing a ride to the dead guy's funeral.

But that ain't what Grant Green was about. He didn't make a lot of money -- he didn't make a huge name for himself (to the degree that jazz players can make a big name for themselves). He was the sort of player that any non guitarist leader who passed up the opportunity to bring him on board would have to have been some sort of dumb ass.

I guess that's one of the reasons I also admire Russell Malone so much from the contemporary population of "A-List" guitar players. He's a more than decent soloist, and a fabulous sideman who can be counted on to make the rest of the combo sound better than they really are.

Too many guitarists try to come off as hotshots forced by outrageous misfortune into working with inferior musicians...and that doesn't really help their cause.

[Ken Olmstead]

He is popular because folks enjoy his music. What is so hard to understand?

It is very listenable stuff. If I have non-musicians over for dinner, I put on Grant Green, Johnny Smith, Kenny Burrell older Miles Davis because people enjoy "that kind of jazz." If I put on Coltrane, they will be telling me that they have to leave because they have to get up early or something. There is such a thing of too much harmonic content! Hence if non-musicians enjoy for musicality sake, why shouldn't musicians.

Seems obvious to me but then I tend to be oblivious so who knows!

[BlueMiles]

I do like Grant Green quite a bit. I've got 5 full CDs by him as a leader, plus I downloaded a "best of" from Blue Note. There are some stray tracks as well, plus sideman appearances, such as Lee Morgan's Search for the New Land (Green adds some cool stuff here).

For me, his very best track is "Talkin' About J.C." That is a pheonomenal trio: Green, Larry Young, Elvin. I think Green does much to represent the "Blue Note sound," but I have to say this is a trio that sounded like no other from that period. I am not one to talk about technique, but the burning drive of this tune is sensational.

[JoeHeider]

I'm all about the Grant Record "Solid" in my opinion his tone is the best i've ever heard from any of his stuff on that album. John Abercrombie turned me on to it. The Title Track is killing, I learned that solo the day I got the record.