Grant Green - can someone explain his popularity

**Little Jay** · 10-17-2010, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Little Jay — to my ear he's a straight line descendant from Charlie Christian, not too sure about the BB bit.

Oh, I only meant he's somewhere between a more simple blues-approach and and the more melodically and harmonically complex jazz, I just picked the first bluesguy and jazzman that came to mind....

Glad you like GG a little better now!

**paynow** · 10-17-2010, 08:43 AM

Take a look at this (the links goes straight to his discography):

Grant Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's also interesting to note how many guys he was a sideman for.

Here's a Stanley Turrentine CD I have on which GG was a sideman:

Rough 'n' Tumble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love it.

Grant was basically the Blue Note house guitarist and played with a lot of major artists; I think if they didn't like his playing or they felt he wasn't cutting it he would not have been used.

**musicalbodger** · 10-17-2010, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by paynow

Take a look at this (the links goes straight to his discography):

Grant Green - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's also interesting to note how many guys he was a sideman for.

Here's a Stanley Turrentine CD I have on which GG was a sideman:

Rough 'n' Tumble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love it.

Grant was basically the Blue Note house guitarist and played with a lot of major artists; I think if they didn't like his playing or they felt he wasn't cutting it he would not have been used.

Thanks for that, paynow.

I was aware of his credentials, I posted because I wanted some pointers as I'd never enjoyed what I'd heard. I'll check out the cd.

**princeplanet** · 10-17-2010, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Green bridges BB King and Wes Montgomery.
Sometimes less is more.
Why does jazz always has to be complex?
I appcreciate haute cuisine, but sometimes I like fish and chips better.....

But it only takes months to simulate the improv style of BB, whereas it would presumably take several lifetimes to learn to improv like Wes. GG is way closer to BB than he is to Wes, IMO, and anyone who feels comfortable with pentatonics and blues scales probably won't marvel too much at the imagination and scope of GG's ideas, although to be fair, he does indeed show from time to time that he was in control of at least a few sophisticated harmonic concepts, but he obviously preferred to lean on his bluesy noodling for much of what he had to say.

Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat....

**jayx123** · 10-17-2010, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But it only takes months to simulate the improv style of BB, whereas it would presumably take several lifetimes to learn to improv like Wes. GG is way closer to BB than he is to Wes, IMO, and anyone who feels comfortable with pentatonics and blues scales probably won't marvel too much at the imagination and scope of GG's ideas, although to be fair, he does indeed show from time to time that he was in control of at least a few sophisticated harmonic concepts, but he obviously preferred to lean on his bluesy noodling for much of what he had to say.

Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat....

At lease from the video posted here he sound a lot more like charlie christian then BB, listen again to the ATTYA video, I don't think it resembles BB playing at all.

**musicalbodger** · 10-17-2010, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But it only takes months to simulate the improv style of BB, whereas it would presumably take several lifetimes to learn to improv like Wes. GG is way closer to BB than he is to Wes, IMO, and anyone who feels comfortable with pentatonics and blues scales probably won't marvel too much at the imagination and scope of GG's ideas, although to be fair, he does indeed show from time to time that he was in control of at least a few sophisticated harmonic concepts, but he obviously preferred to lean on his bluesy noodling for much of what he had to say.

Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat....

PP, give his "Quartets with Sonny Clark" a listen. Bit more than just pentatonics and blues scale. Very much a developed Charlie Christian feel to his playing at this point. I think his "reliance on blues noodling" was a phase he went through when aiming to be commercial.

And there's me defending the man now!

**monk** · 10-17-2010, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

But it only takes months to simulate the improv style of BB, whereas it would presumably take several lifetimes to learn to improv like Wes.

At this point, I have to say that you haven't listened, deeply, to enough B.B. King and you overlook the fact that Wes Montgomery learned to play the way he did in less than a lifetime.

**musicalbodger** · 10-17-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by monk

At this point, I have to say that you haven't listened, deeply, to enough B.B. King and you overlook the fact that Wes Montgomery learned to play the way he did in less than a lifetime.

**princeplanet** · 10-17-2010, 01:28 PM

Ha! I knew I wouldn't be let off lightly for that. Sure, there's a lot still goin' on with BB, feel, tone, phrasing etc, so yeah, you won't sound just like him in a hurry, but surely you can't argue with the plain fact that his style is a lot more simplistic than Wes', even if Wes did develop his style in probably just a coupla decades. But he was a freak, right? I mean we can learn his solos note for note, but that doesn't mean we can learn to think up ideas on the spot like he could. Still the benchmark for mine, I guess like Parker and Clifford still are for their respective instruments for many folks.
But Green or Burrell sound comparatively unremarkable, respectable and listenable certainly, even enjoyable, but I too sometimes wonder why they seem so highly regarded these days.

**jeffroi** · 10-17-2010, 01:30 PM

I'm spending some time transcribing this solo ...

Sure the man can play !

**monk** · 10-17-2010, 01:32 PM

Perhaps a bit of historical perspective is in order.

Due to his commercial success with A&M Records and Top 40 radio airplay for Windy, Wes had a very high media profile in the mid-to-late 60s. He was all over TV (The Tonight Show, Merv Griffin Show, Mike Douglas Show, Hollywood Palace).

Unlike many jazz guitarists who preceded and followed him, Wes had sufficient TV & radio exposure to the extent that John & Jane Doe actually knew who he was and knew the regard in which he was held. In addition, guitarists of all genres were talking about him . Wes Montgomery became the single best known jazz guitarist of all time.

It also needs to be understood that while rock was in its ascendency at this time, the major singers of the 40s & and 50s were still a force to be reckoned with on Top 40 radio and they routinely used jazz guitarists on their recordings. Also, these singers had much higher television profiles than the rock acts.

Coupled with the fact that nearly all the aforementioned talk shows had orchestras that employed "name" jazz guitarists; the sound of jazz guitar had not yet faded in the consciousness of the general public. In the midst of all this stood Wes Montgomery overshadowing everyone including Grant Green.

Looking back at articles & interviews in music magazines from that time, GG was considered to be a workman-like guitarist in the Christian tradition. In spite of all the work he did at Blue Note, he was considered to be just one of the guys but not special in the way that Lang, Reinhardt, Christian & Montgomery were.

Even in death, Wes overshadowed Green. Careful reading of interviews with Green will reveal a subtext of frustration at being overlooked in favor of not only Montgomery but young upstart George Benson as well.
Life was not kind to Grant Green. He spent most of it futilely trying to achieve the acclaim and financial success that Wes enjoyed. The ensuing years since his death have seen Green's stock rise considerably and he has received some of the attention that eluded him in life. Nonetheless, he will always suffer in comparison to Montgomery.

Respectfully,
monk

**princeplanet** · 10-17-2010, 01:39 PM

So, gun to head, who do you prefer to listen to, Wes or GG? Just wonderin'....

**monk** · 10-17-2010, 01:42 PM

No need to use a gun. My Wes stuff gets played much more than my GG.

**paynow** · 10-17-2010, 02:05 PM

Another bio that makes some interesting points:

Grant Green - great jazz guitarists

**musicalbodger** · 10-17-2010, 02:30 PM

Appropos of nothing really, but I was reading the biography that paynow has just linked to and it occurred to me that another reason GG's tone was so hard might be due to the fact he was so often playing in organ trios. A sharp staccato tone is going to be far more distinctive when playing against an organ than a more mellow tone. Once he had the sound, why change? Just a thought.

**Flyin' Brian** · 10-17-2010, 02:55 PM

I have to admit that I have holes in my GG knowledge, but kind of the opposite of what has been mentioned. I have never heard any of his funk stuff.

**KB_Blues** · 10-17-2010, 03:56 PM

I don't care too much for his earlier stuff, though it is pretty good. But I do love his funky stuff!! Check out "Carryin' On". Super cool!

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-17-2010, 06:43 PM

Yeah and one more thing. No Grant Green........No George Benson. He said GG was his biggest influence numerous times. If you can't hear it, time to hang it up and take up fly fishing.

**monk** · 10-17-2010, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

Yeah and one more thing. No Grant Green........No George Benson. He said GG was his biggest influence numerous times. If you can't hear it, time to hang it up and take up fly fishing.

If you are going to engage in hyperbole, please quote sources.

Regards,
monk

**FatJeff** · 10-17-2010, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

Yeah and one more thing. No Grant Green........No George Benson. He said GG was his biggest influence numerous times. If you can't hear it, time to hang it up and take up fly fishing.

Fine with me. I don't really like George Benson's playing all that much either. Guess I better not bother playing guitar anymore.

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-17-2010, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Fine with me. I don't really like George Benson's playing all that much either. Guess I better not bother playing guitar anymore.

It was just a feeler (hyperbole). Wasn't sure. Now I'm sure. Unbelievable.

**FatJeff** · 10-17-2010, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

It was just a feeler (hyperbole). Wasn't sure. Now I'm sure. Unbelievable.

I don't need to provide a reason beyond what I've already written about GG to justify my preference. I don't HATE those two players, but there are a lot of others I would rather listen to.

**monk** · 10-17-2010, 09:12 PM

Hmmm.....
Christopher Parkening and Amos Garrett are fly fishermen.

**ChuckCorbis** · 10-17-2010, 10:23 PM

First of all this right here is the shit as far as I'm concerned. He articulates like a horn player and he's not picking the triplets alternately. He goes across with a down stroke. No harmonic simplicity here. I love it. It's outstanding. Is Van Gelder the engineer here? Rudy knew what he was doing and if there was a problem he would have fixed it. Yeah it's edgy and dirty. Ha. Not pretty at all. Nice. Hard to bullshit with a sound like that. I think Van Gelder was involved in tweeking Wes' sound which changed drastically in a good way on the later stuff. I wonder who did the remastering to CD on this.

Originally Posted by Foulds Jazz Guitars

This is probably my favorite Grant solo, the cheeky motif he uses over the Gm7-C7 allows the whole thing to hang together and he does superimpose a side slipping Emaj sound over the final C7 which resolves to the tonic F so I'd say thats a hip sub for the time and place.

Grants da man!

**princeplanet** · 10-17-2010, 10:39 PM

Yes, this is the GG I prefer too, but isn't he admired mostly for his simpler bluesy playing? FWIW I don't mind his articulation, here it's nice and crisp. Cutting through the organ? dunno if that's the reason he picked so hard, maybe he liked Django's attack, or maybe he played against vibes a lot.... Must say that in the track above, the band comes out messy, not diggin the organ comping behind GG.
Hate to do this, but again if you compare Mel Rhyne's comping against Wes, it's kinda in another league.

Like what Monk said, if it wasn't for Wes, maybe GG would have been "the man" in the early 60's......