Trey Anastasio

Fractal · #1 09-22-2010, 12:51 AM

I feel a little out of place bringing up a trey related thread on this forum. For those who may feel this is an aberration, my apologies. Anyway, I like phish, and occasionally I'll transcribe a little of Trey's solos. I have noticed that almost always he seems to just be doing licks out of a minor pentatonic, and then licks out of a minor pentatonic a fourth up. ie, riffs out of A min pent, then licks out of D min pent. Now, all the notes of D min pentatonic are also in A minor. I just wonder how he thinks about what he is doing. Is he consciously switching between the different pentatonics, or is he just riffing in A minor pent and then adding in the notes in A minor that are not in the pentatonic? I suppose in the end perhaps it is the same thing.

I have just transcribed licks from jams, so I don't think there are any "chord changes" going on, and besides his licks I don't hear the whole band changing from I to IV. Anyway, I was just curious if there are any other Phish fans on here who may have analyzed his soloing (again, I feel funny writing this, since these are always just aimless noodling compared to the usual jazz standard), or have read any interviews with him where he discusses it.

FatJeff · #2 09-22-2010, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fractal

Now, all the notes of D min pentatonic are also in A minor. I just wonder how he thinks about what he is doing.

Not exactly. Dm pent: D F G A C; Am pent: A C D E G. The difference is between the E and the F, which are a half step away from each other. Close, but not exactly the same. That's probably why it works so well switching from one to the other.

Quote:

Is he consciously switching between the different pentatonics, or is he just riffing in A minor pent and then adding in the notes in A minor that are not in the pentatonic? I suppose in the end perhaps it is the same thing.

Not sure, but probably a mix of both. After playing so much for so many years, I'm sure it's all blended in together for him.

Quote:

I have just transcribed licks from jams, so I don't think there are any "chord changes" going on, and besides his licks I don't hear the whole band changing from I to IV. Anyway, I was just curious if there are any other Phish fans on here who may have analyzed his soloing (again, I feel funny writing this, since these are always just aimless noodling compared to the usual jazz standard), or have read any interviews with him where he discusses it.

I totally respect Trey and I think he's a great guitarist. He's definitely a "feel" player, which is great since the typical Phish song doesn't move key centers much, like a jazz standard would. Almost all of their songs are definitely more interesting and well-crafted than the typical indie crap you hear on the radio.

Maybe you should become our own resident Phish expert! I'd be interested in analysis of some of his solos. You could start by transcribing the solo from "Farmhouse"...

derek · #3 09-22-2010, 09:54 AM

I really like Trey, and most of the music Phish does, but as soon as they start singing, they lose me. I can't stand the lyrics or vocal quality. Love Trey's playing though, so I like him in pretty much every other setting.

Fractal · #4 09-22-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Not exactly. Dm pent: D F G A C; Am pent: A C D E G. The difference is between the E and the F, which are a half step away from each other. Close, but not exactly the same. That's probably why it works so well switching from one to the other.

Not sure, but probably a mix of both. After playing so much for so many years, I'm sure it's all blended in together for him.

I totally respect Trey and I think he's a great guitarist. He's definitely a "feel" player, which is great since the typical Phish song doesn't move key centers much, like a jazz standard would. Almost all of their songs are definitely more interesting and well-crafted than the typical indie crap you hear on the radio.

Maybe you should become our own resident Phish expert! I'd be interested in analysis of some of his solos. You could start by transcribing the solo from "Farmhouse"...

I meant all the notes in D pentatonic are in A minor (Aeolian). So if they are jamming in A he is never playing anything out of key to riff in D pentatonic. Thanks for all the thoughts. I just have a second here before work, I will re-read it slowly later. Thanks

fep · #5 09-22-2010, 11:31 AM

Can you link us to a youtube video and the exact time frame where he's playing the Am penatonic to the Dm penatonic?

If the bass is emphasizing an A note over the whole passage then perhaps he's creating harmonic movement and interest by doing this.

Over an A bass:

Am penatonic implies an Am chord
Dm penatonic implies Dm/A or F/A

If there's another instrument playing an Am chord...

Over Am chord and A bass:

Am penatonic implies an Am chord
Dm penatonic implies Dm9/A or Fmaj7/A

I'd like to hear it.

Fractal · #6 09-22-2010, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fep

Can you link us to a youtube video and the exact time frame where he's playing the Am penatonic to the Dm penatonic?

If the bass is emphasizing an A note over the whole passage then perhaps he's creating harmonic movement and interest by doing this.

Over an A bass:

Am penatonic implies an Am chord
Dm penatonic implies Dm/A or F/A

If there's another instrument playing an Am chord...

Over Am chord and A bass:

Am penatonic implies an Am chord
Dm penatonic implies Dm9/A or Fmaj7/A

I'd like to hear it.

Well, you made me look over it again and realize that I wasn't very conscientious in looking over it before. The first 9 seconds are the only licks that seem to be pure A pent, after that, it is all D pent. I attached the little chunk I looked at if you want to give it a listen. It is from a sound check jam 12-29-94. But I feel like I have noticed this switching between a pentatonic and a pentatonic a fourth up in in other trey solos I have stolen licks from.

[quote]
Maybe you should become our own resident Phish expert! I'd be interested in analysis of some of his solos. You could start by transcribing the solo from "Farmhouse"...
[/qoute]

I was surprised to see that I don't have farmhouse. I have many gigabytes of live stuff, it seems they never really play it live. I's funny because I forget that they have a lot more poppy stuff on their albums compared to what is in their usual rotation for live shows. I'll let you know if I look at that song, but it isn't my favorite example of his playing. Also, I feel like learning some solo from a jam might give more of a picture into how the player approaches soloing then a multiple take studio album (but I am just assuming that they didn't do the solo in one take).

FatJeff · #7 09-22-2010, 11:55 PM

I'm certainly no expert on Phish, and I've never seen them. I've got a good friend that follows them, though. He turned me on to a live DVD from some New Year's show (this would have been pre-2004 since that is when I saw it). They are a great band live!

fep · #8 09-23-2010, 09:11 AM

Fractal,

Thanks for posted the mp3.

You could analyze that as Am pentatonic at the begining...

The way I analyze it though is he's extending a Dm chord (the backup band is playing Dm7 or Dm9 or Dm11 modal stuff).

If you extend a Dm...

D F A C = Dm7

but keep going, D F A C E = Dm9

and keep going, D F A C E G = Dm11, now you've got the collection of notes he's using. It's Dm penatonic plus a 9th added.

I see the first bit that he's playing on the 5th fret as based off of Dm (The 'A' form if you're used to CAGED system), here he's playing Dm penatonic plus a 9th (I also hear that #7 passing tone at one bit)

Then he moves up to the 10th fret which I also see as Dm (The 'E' form from CAGED). Here he's playing Dm penatonic (I hear a b5 passing tone at one bit).

His phrasing really makes this come alive.

drewblue · #9 10-03-2010, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

I really like Trey, and most of the music Phish does, but as soon as they start singing, they lose me. I can't stand the lyrics or vocal quality. Love Trey's playing though, so I like him in pretty much every other setting.

i know what your saying. i love alot of their instrumental stuff. something though that may be more up people around here's alley would be trey's solo live album plasma. it's pretty funky and mostly instrumental. it's by far my favorite thing he has ever done. not my favorite player but the guy can build up a solo.

MrFantasy · #10 10-08-2010, 12:57 AM

I love phish

exarctly · #11 10-18-2011, 03:40 PM

I actually do know a lot about this band and Trey, and I can tell you that he often does play through changes, in the songs that utilize them. There are a lot of sections, and he utilizes arpeggios a lot and has talked about this in interviews. Even songs that are all diatonic you can clearly hear him outlining the chord tones etc. And some songs do involve key changes and jazz sections, and they do play an occasinal jazz tune. They even practiced playing jazz for quite a while at one point.

Now the jams are more modal or do not move key hardly ever, but even in a lot of these he does some cool jazzy inside outside ideas and mixes the modes and gets good dissonances.

I would never classify him as a great jazz guitarist, but I respect a lot of what he does and think he does understand the music and much f the approach to improvising over changes. A jam of theirs last year even quoted a section of A Love Supreme. And they love Herbie Hancock fusion, and he recorded a track with Herbie a few years back as well.

jmstritt · #12 10-18-2011, 05:13 PM

You can usually sub a min 7 chord for a min 7 down a fourth. For instance in the key of C you would have d min 7 and a min 7. The A minor would be your tonic type minor and the D minor would be subdominant. So if you were in C you could play A minor pentatonic and weave in and out of D minor pentatonic.

FatJeff · #13 10-18-2011, 05:20 PM

It goes beyond this, too. If you're talking strictly pentatonics, you can play the pentatonic on the I, the V or the II. The I is the most "in" sounding, then the V, then the II. This works for either major or minor pentatonics. So for instance, using jmstritt's example, if you're jamming D minor (e.g. you're playing Impressions), start with solos in the Dm pent shape, then move to Am pent, then finally to Emin pent. or, if you're playing in a major tonality (e.g. Cmaj7), play Cmaj pent, then Gmaj pent, then Dmaj pent. You can get some great sounds that way without having to think too hard.

And best of all, if you work in a little side-slipping, and then resolve appropriately, you can go "way out," without having to think about diminished scales, melodic minor harmony, or anything else. Try it!

hallpass · #14 10-18-2011, 07:14 PM

Hey guys....

I'm a huge Phish fan. Not as much over recent years, but have probably seen them live 20-25 times over the years. I was at the show from the clip that Fractal posted. I believe it was in Providence RI 10/22/10. I have friends who have seen them 80+ times...crazy. Their live show is pretty different than their recent studio material and a great time filled with great music and a band taking chances.

Anyway, I've never spent the time to analyze what Trey is doing but would like to and appreciate the post here sharing what they're seeing/hearing. Yea, he isn't a jazz guitarist, but he's obviously influenced by jazz a lot. I have a recoding of Phish doing Maiden Voyage back in their early days (1988), though Trey sits it out unfortunately. Trey did some jazzier stuff in a project called Bad Hat...a little more info on them here.

exarctly · #15 10-20-2011, 11:15 AM

Jeff...

did you mean C maj in the example where you mentioned using A G and D major pentatonic? I know you go on to mention cool out sounds you can get cycling through some pentatonic keys, but I thoughtt earlier in the post you were just talking about playing pentatonics on the I V or II. Not sure how the C major example was supposed to be one of those or a more out example.

FatJeff · #16 10-20-2011, 12:26 PM

Yes, that was a typo (fixed now) - should have been Cmaj pent.

The C major example just shows that you can use the same concept (pentatonics on the I, II or V) no matter if it's minor or major that you're playing in. If you're in a minor section, use min pent; if you're in a major section, use major pent.

chancho · #17 10-25-2011, 08:41 PM

Im a big trey fan myself and have to admit that it was his style of jamming that got interested in listening to improvisations in jazz guitarist.
Im glad someone other than me bought him up

Trey is friggin amazing though!

muNICU · #18 10-26-2011, 02:21 PM

Huge Phish fan here, glad to see there are others who like them here as well.

Currently learning this song. (Stash).

That opening section is so much fun to play. Off the wall lyrics (Trey himself said there is no meaning to them in this song) but hey...that's Phish for ya.

EDIT: and if you want to hear a killer version of Stash check out the version from 'A Live One' or from their 1998 Island tour.