Artists vs Players

[Jazzyteach65]

artists vs players
　
Reading some of what Kieth Jarrett has to say has fueled my ongoing personal debate as to what an artist in today's jazz scene is. I know the word "artist" is subjective, and I know that Kieth Jarrett comes of as an arrogant world-class asshole, but a lot of what he has to say I agree with. Every year schools turn out thousands of youtube jazz shredders who can play a lot, but can't really say a lot. I beleive, IMHO the artist spends most of his or her time constantly crafting his or her voice, not really caring about record deals, how they are marketing themselves ect. Artists something new to say in a very personal way that reflects who they are. They have thier own distinct voics.
I do believe that ou can be a virtuoso but not an artists. I don't know if I would even call classical musicians "artists."
A prime exaple of what I'm trying to articulate is a player who shall remain nameless. A lot of you guys are familiar with his work. He is known as a "jazz shredder" in conscious circles, but to the mass public who aren't familiar with jazz, he is an icon. He has banked on instructional videos, because kids see that he can burn 1,000s of licks at light speed, and are imnpressed. I got the opportunity to play with said player, and his personality reflected his playing. I introduced myself upon meeting him, mentioned where I had studied, who I had studied with ect. "You went to UNT, so you wasted your money learning scales, theory and modes?" It pissed me off, but I said nothing. Before taking the stage, I told him I am relatively slow, I cannot "burn" and I could get nearvous playing with such an experienced player. He told me "you don't have to be fast, it's okay." We take stage and we play over a vamp in F. He starts out completely tearing lines to shreds and burning. I got upset while I was comping. Was this guy trying to show me up? He didn't even establish simple themes or build his ideas up, he just started out like most of his work, BURNING. It didn't surprise me that his personality, an ignorant one that shuns theory and academia ( he says jazz is learned on the streets) came through in his playing. Then I realized his playing has stayed the same for the last 40 years. He hasn't really said ANYTHING relevant in any of his works. I criticized said player online, and his media team called me up and threatened with acytion.
Here is a few Jarret quotes of what I'm talking about:
"It's totally unrealistic to think that you're going to be a great player just because you know how to play fast or you know how to play 5,000 styles," he says. "I read reviews of new players who can sit in with anybody or play with five different types of band in five nights - and everybody talks about this like it's a positive thing. If you get an audience and you get gigs and you have a name before you have anything to say, it actually wipes out the possibility of saying something later on. The people who would produce valuable things are waylaid too soon. The bigger the media, the worse it is for the artist. I'm not even sure I should use the word artist. There are some ages, I think, that don't deserve art as much as others. I almost think we live in a time now when that is true." I think there's a horrible thing going on now, where young players haven't been told by the right people that there's more to it than marketing themselves. They expend all the energy they should be using to find their voice, or work on their voice, or listen to themselves play. They've got to resist this stuff. I was called by Columbia at one point when I was with this little ECM record label, and they offered me a giant advance. I said no. It's not just what's getting exposed, but who you're exposing it to it."
　
He also says that the artistic survival is a struggle to survive in a world of empty virtuosity, mimicry, diffidence, apathy ect.
　
With that said, what are your thoughts? Who in your mind are artists, bringing thier own fresh voices to the table, and who are players, guys who can just play?
I think of Frissel, Kenny Burrell, Peter Bernstien, Jim Hall, Sco, Wes, Jimmy Rainey, Grant Green ect as artists in the very true sense. None of them are really "shredders"
In other words, you can be a technician, with all the technique, then you can be an artist.

[Jazzyteach65]

we live in a society where kids that get told how great they are lose focus on self-developement. They think they've arrived. It's always been that way, but more so than ever, I feel. It happens in sports with the whole ESPN generation. As I've said more then I should have, MTV, music videos and ESPN have ruined so much of what was kind of pure.

[fumblefingers]

Here we go again.

This subject is subjective as hell. (Hey that's redundant)

I don't like calling composers and musicians artists because the term then gets applied to everyone from Miles Davis to Metallica, J-Lo, Beyonce, and Britney. But you could legitimately classify them as "recording artists" or “performance artists”. Or could you? And on it goes.

Classical musicians have as much a claim on the term “artist” as jazzers do. Improvisation is a form of extemporaneous composition – its just not as good as real composing. But it can be much more exciting because it’s a high wire act and has the energy of free expression. But most solos ain’t masterpieces. Classical soloists can fairly be termed artists because of their interpretations and treatments of the masterpieces. Doubt me? Check it out - I love Keith Jarrett’s jazz music, especially with his trio, but just compare his classical piano performances with those of Alfred Brendel, Andre' Watts, or Vladimir Ashkenazy (and many other great pianists).

It’s not even close. Sorry.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Jazzyteach,
Do you consider yourself an artist or player?

Emperor Joseph II: It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect.

Mozart: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

Thanks for the chuckle this morning. Always good to revive the 'crazy kids and their darn hemi-demi-semi-quaver' argument. I really had no idea you had to be Keith Jarrett or play slowly to be an artist. I'll keep that in mind.

You asked, not that it is going to matter at all--I could go on and on....

Bryan Baker
Nir Felder
Kurt Rosenwinkel
Ben Monder
Miles Okazaki
Punch Brothers
John O'Gallahager
David Binney
Tim Berne
Aaron Park
Brian Blade
Craig Taborn
Chris Potter
Christian Scott
Edgar Meyers
Greg Osby
Jacob Young
John Stowell


blah, blah, blah. I'm bored and would rather practice.

[Jazzaluk]

IMO, examining this question is basically an examination of motivation. Some players want to be viewed as professionals, some craftsmen, some teachers...etc. Whatever a musician identifies with will be reflected in their music.

The question is what motivates an artist. Personally, I think that an artist's motivation should be to speak to the human emotion. Good artists communicate clearly to this human center while the best can actually control how you feel. I believe this ability to be independent from the craft side of music and demands as much weight and attention as theory and technique require.

I think there are far less artists in the guitar world than we care to admit.

[mr. beaumont]

I get what Jarrett is saying, agree with much of it, and I think he's entitled to his opinion. an artist is a person who makes art. They can be formally trained or ignorant of all precedent. They can be six years old or 106. Technical ability does not necessarily "equal" art.

What matters is the art. Pop music, when done well, is an artform--Many "important" jazz musicians would probably like to doubt that, but it's hard to see the reality of things with your head so far up your own ass.

[musicjohnny]

I personally don't see anything wrong with the guitarist that you encountered.
He says Jazz is learned on the streets, and that is very true to an extent; and he is entitled to his own opinion.
He may not have been trying to show you up, that's just the way he prefers to play. Too many folks just affiliate burning with "no soul" as soon as you hear it when in reality I think they mean to say "He plays too fast for my taste".

[fumblefingers]

yeah, besides i'm not sure if that many people view Al as a jazzer as was said anyway. Or did i mean Frank?

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Here we go again.

This subject is subjective as hell. (Hey that's redundant)

I don't like calling composers and musicians artists because the term then gets applied to everyone from Miles Davis to Metallica, J-Lo, Beyonce, and Britney. But you could legitimately classify them as "recording artists" or “performance artists”. Or could you? And on it goes.

Classical musicians have as much a claim on the term “artist” as jazzers do. Improvisation is a form of extemporaneous composition – its just not as good as real composing. But it can be much more exciting because it’s a high wire act and has the energy of free expression. But most solos ain’t masterpieces. Classical soloists can fairly be termed artists because of their interpretations and treatments of the masterpieces. Doubt me? Check it out - I love Keith Jarrett’s jazz music, especially with his trio, but just compare his classical piano performances with those of Alfred Brendel, Andre' Watts, or Vladimir Ashkenazy (and many other great pianists).

It’s not even close. Sorry.

True, I agree with you. I'm not a fan of Jarrett's classical stuff, anbd have heard little of it. By saying I'm not sure I would calssify classical players as artists, it was a typo, as is most of my rant is, mispelled and devoid of proper grammar. I forgot to include "artists in the same sense jazz artists are."

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek

Jazzyteach,
Do you consider yourself an artist or player?

Neither. I don't play much anymore, I am still sufferring from a torn left rotator.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

retired artist then?

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

IMO, examining this question is basically an examination of motivation. Some players want to be viewed as professionals, some craftsmen, some teachers...etc. Whatever a musician identifies with will be reflected in their music.

The question is what motivates an artist. Personally, I think that an artist's motivation should be to speak to the human emotion. Good artists communicate clearly to this human center while the best can actually control how you feel. I believe this ability to be independent from the craft side of music and demands as much weight and attention as theory and technique require.

I think there are far less artists in the guitar world than we care to admit.

My point EXACTLY! Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "artist," maybe I should have described what I was trying to articulate a bit clearer. My intention was a healthy debate on a subjective subject I struggle with in my head all the time, that is a question as old as humanity itself: What is art?

That is a silly and VERY general question, but I'm sure we all question others and wonder about their motivation. I agree with you 100% in that the artist HAS to be sensitive to and conscious of the human condition, that is our emotion and our being, anbd to others around him or herself. That way he or she can reflect emotions we all feel; pain, joy ect and convey them in a way in which we can relate to. This means the artist is also constantly reaching to new heights, not rooted in the mud. New heights and new ground without fear, to tell a new story. Players that are good listeners and create dialogue amongst others while taken people places is FAR DIFFERENT than players that cannot lusten, sit down and noodle and aren't aware of thier own identity.

What I'm trying to say is the individual recognizable artists vs the apathetic, insensative immitator (there's plenty of them) When we cross a Picasso, a Dali or a Pollock, we know immediately who the artist is. When we here Jim Hall, Kurt Rosenwinkle, Thelonious, Eric Dolphy, we know IMMEDIATELY who they are, and most of the time, there motivation and what they are trying to achieve.

Jim Hall and Bill Evens to me spoke about the ENTIRE UNIVERSE in "Undercurrent" without comprimising a damn thing. They played who they were. I hear warmth, sympathy, conviction ect

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek

retired artist then?

Well, I actually am a teacher, but had to quit. I'm moving and going back to school to study other kinds of musics.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I get what Jarrett is saying, agree with much of it, and I think he's entitled to his opinion. an artist is a person who makes art. They can be formally trained or ignorant of all precedent. They can be six years old or 106. Technical ability does not necessarily "equal" art.

What matters is the art. Pop music, when done well, is an artform--Many "important" jazz musicians would probably like to doubt that, but it's hard to see the reality of things with your head so far up your own ass.

Mr B, my whole point is this: the artists we truly admire dedicate most of thier entire being into thier craft to relate to others. Britney Spears spends maybe five days a year recording with synthesized sounds, and puts more into dancing on stage as an etnertainer than she does with her music. Sure they are artists too, maybe, but not in the same breadth of those that regard as. In this sense Jarrett is right IMHO

[Baltar Hornbeek]

did you teach them how to make art? or how to play?

[Scrybe]

The artists know they are artists. The performers/celebrities just think they are artists. That's the only real difference.

[cosmic gumbo]

If Catfish Strut ain't art, then I'm no artist.

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek

did you teach them how to make art? or how to play?

Is this some kind of mockery? I taught ensemble and privately, which is repetoire, technique, theory, sight-reading ect. Some of my private students I still teach once in a while, which I do tell them adages I learned from my mentors and teachers. These were tools or tips on how to explore possibilities and form an identity. For example, if I gave all the tools, shapes, scales, patterns, sounds, and improvisational devices, I would tell them to take what they like, what sounds best reflect themselves and what they are tryinbg to articulate. For example, I have this one student who is 14 and is very bright, yet quiet and dark-minded. He tends to play with a lot of quick dissonance and minor ideas.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

Is this some kind of mockery? .

"Any general statement is like a check drawn on a bank. Its value depends on what is there to meet it." -Ezra Pound

[mr. beaumont]

You can't teach anyone how to make art-- you teach fundamentals, theory and techniques while calling attention to artistic precedent and contemporaries, all in hopes of helping the student better express themselves in a chosen style, or open new doors of expression to them that they have not yet explored.

[jeffstritt]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

yeah, besides i'm not sure if that many people view Al as a jazzer as was said anyway. Or did i mean Frank?

Not Frank, he went to GIT, so he can't use the, "Jazz is learned on the street," line of bs.

[patskywriter]

i tend to think of the musicians whose music i enjoy as artists. because i purchase my own CDs and MP3s i think that i have the right to determine who's worthy of my hard-earned $$$, and thus don't worry about my (very) subjective opinion.

[fep]

It's only my opinion but...

Artists, a big part of their work is composition.

Players, composition is not a big part of their identity.

Both players and artists can be great in my mind.

Al Dimeola, Pat Metheny, I think of them as artists.

Jim Hall, George Benson, I think of them as players (great players).

[derek]

Metheny said something like this last summer at a master class. While there are scores of players with chops, very few seem to be able to play to where you can hear the melody or tune. Very few can tell a story.

I am guessing that these are the sorts of things that don't necessarily come from the University, but from the bandstand. So were Pat and Keith able to do this when they were still wet behind the ears, or did they need plenty of seasoning too?

So are the people who handpaint parts of the Kincaid prints artists?

[medblues]

Jim Hall wrote (continues to write) a considerable amount, I like "Big Blues" a lot, "All Across The City" is very nice too. Maybe you meant to put DiMeola and Benson together as players not artists ?

Originally Posted by fep

It's only my opinion but...

Artists, a big part of their work is composition.

Players, composition is not a big part of their identity.

Both players and artists can be great in my mind.

Al Dimeola, Pat Metheny, I think of them as artists.

Jim Hall, George Benson, I think of them as players (great players).

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by medblues

Jim Hall wrote (continues to write) a considerable amount, I like "Big Blues" a lot, "All Across The City" is very nice too. Maybe you meant to put DiMeola and Benson together as players not artists ?

haha i caught that too.

but i think that DiMeola writes his own stuff too? don't know cuz i don't follow him.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by derek

Metheny said something like this last summer at a master class. While there are scores of players with chops, very few seem to be able to play to where you can hear the melody or tune. Very few can tell a story.

I am guessing that these are the sorts of things that don't necessarily come from the University, but from the bandstand. So were Pat and Keith able to do this when they were still wet behind the ears, or did they need plenty of seasoning too?

So are the people who handpaint parts of the Kincaid prints artists?

no.

[medblues]

I don't follow Di Meola either, but I like Mediterranean Sundance. He might have written all the pieces in that album (Elegant Gypsy ?). Jim Hall made it very clear in his statements that he did not feel technically up to par with faster players and he chose to focus on harmonic explorations and expressive style.

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

haha i caught that too.

but i think that DiMeola writes his own stuff too? don't know cuz i don't follow him.

[Scrybe]

Jim Hall's Careful is, in my opinion, art. Love that tune. Blues but not blues, and wickedly dark.