Artists vs Players

[Baltar Hornbeek]

I never read so much drivel

[Drumbler]

I think Vonnegut was commenting on the absurdity of the "art" in question.

[cosmic gumbo]

Beavis: "Art is just fart without an f, hehe".

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Yes.

Otherwise who would know?

Lady Gaga is an "artist".

Prince is an "artist".

Thanks... are their any qualifications for the popularity, age, color, measurable intelligence, political view. Are there time constraints, one day...one century, is there monetary weight... sorry... having fun, I am not an expert, but believe an artist is still an artist, even if no one knows... Best Reg

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

IMO, if an artistic creation requires a manual or instructions to understand, then it is suspect. If it must be explained, where is the art - In the creation or in the explanation? If the artist's intent is realized in the observer, then no explanation is required.

Of course the observer's perception is a wild-card. The lens of the observer is what makes the whole art thing subjective; but this does not absolve the artist of the need for intent. Regardless of the imperfections and level of understanding in the observer, an artist must still be true to their own feelings and try to communicate them honestly. Impressive skill and technique are not enough.

Every so often a creation appears that speaks directly to the human essence, and will resonate with observers on every level from "common folk" to aficionados. No manual required.

Some late night thoughts for you Jazzyteach65.

Yes. I think a perfect example of someone who never comprised his theory of communication for technical wizardry is Thelonious. It is often said that while he never had the technical facility that Bud Powell had, (his dear friend and his contemporary) nor did he ever comprimise his sound for the critics, he was able to say so much as an artist, even by unintentionally playing a "wrong note." His deleayed anticipation, playing and accenting far off beat and at funny moments in the music, as well as his penchant for dissonant, his use of dynamics to get an idea across ect made him an artist IMHO. Monk reminds us of someone like a Picasso, so absurb yet so communicative. In fact, when he was asked questions, he often would play the answer on the piano.

[Jazzyteach65]

Now someone that is true to themselvbes, the art they are creating ect is not what I call a "commercial" artist.

What if one day Pat Martino started endorsing coke or pepsi in ads, played music on Disney commercials, danced while he played guitar, only wrote 1/5 of his music, had back-up dancers ect. Would he be an artist true to himself?

An artist that is not commercial could care less about record sales IMHO. Monk didn't start selling records till he was 40.

[mr. beaumont]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...ZZZ...(snort)(mr. b blinks eyes, seperates dried tounge from roof of mouth)

"You guys are still here?"

[Jazzaluk]

Sorry Jazzteach65... Interesting thread my friend but I'm afraid I'm out. The forum deities have been reduced to lame one-liners and apparently Beaumont is bored (but seemed to stay awake long enough to be rude). That means it's feeding time at the zoo. Best regards

[mr. beaumont]

You take me too seriously, Jazzaluk. My coment was only intended to say this thread has been going on a while, as if there was a spirited discussion going on in my living room at a party, I dozed off, awoke, and everyone was still at it.

I'll give my opinion on the whole thing, but it's the antithesis of the entire deep conversation, and I was inclined previously to hold my opinion to my self--but now I'll let it out there, in hopes you'll see I was actually enjoying the discourse and not just trying to be an asshole--but rather, to lighten up what had gotten pretty deep and heavy.

I suppose I view "Art" very differently. To me, Art is simple--it's the end result of creative actions--or sometimes, the process of the creative actions themself. This means I can create Art, Jim Hall and Pat Metheny can create Art, Lada Gaga and Madonna and my 5 year old godchild can too.

So I dislike an "Artists versus players" arguement because eventually, someone will have to twist their definition of art to include someone they like or exclude someone they don't. Hence, the "I don't think Lady Gaga is an artist" comment someone made a few pages back--or even worse, the comments early on that someone like Jim Hall was a "player" because he played other people's music a lot of the time. Silliness...in jazz in particular, the improvisation is the soul of the art--just as in pop music, the total package, every thing from crafting the perfect catchy song to the production to the photography on the CD sleeve--it's all Art.

People like to reserve the words Art and Artist for folks they'd like to put on a pedestal, which only serves to hinder the advancement of Art. "I can't do that" is something you hear a lot from young artists, both visual and musical. We give people a complex with our incessant labeling of things--deciding what qualifies as "Art" and what doesn't. How silly and self-important are we? It's not our business to label art. We can decide whether or not we enjoy it, but never if it is indeed art--it need only be called Art by it's creator.

That pisses a lot of people off, and for good reason. I often hear "My 6 year old nephew could have painted that!"

"Then why didn't he?" Is always my response.

[Jazzaluk]

I appreciate your post Mr B. as well as your point of view. My apologies for getting wrapped around the axle... sometimes I miss the joke... and I'm not interested in flame-wars (even if I cause inadvertently cause them ).

I can't disagree with anything you say about art. As an art teacher you must have a much broader perspective on the subject. I suppose my definition is not quite as broad and all encompassing. I like to reserve the art label for creations that communicate on an emotional level.. IMO, if it doesn't do this then it is craft... even if it is extremely good craft.

Also, as I have clumsily said in previous posts, I think that there must be an element of intent. For example, If I learn a well written tune like "All The Things You Are" and become proficient at playing it then I have produced "craft". If I can express the tune a manner that reflects how I feel at the moment, I am moving towards art. If it works, then a listener might be able to experience the same feeling. This may seem flaky, but to me this is where a craft transforms into art. Some musician call it "being in the moment". I think its pretty easy to see hear the difference.

So I guess the real question is, when does a player cross-over to an artist?

[Drumbler]

Originally Posted by Reg

Thanks... are their any qualifications... Are there time constraints, one day...one century,

15 minutes is enough.

[backliner]

So my wife and I attended a Pat Metheny concert lately ("Orchestrian"), and not too long into it I was totally captivated by his creativity (again).

There came a point at which I was sorta reliving the Penn & Tellar schtick about saving the world from invading aliens by demonstrating Elvis was unique in the universe to them.

I realized during one of his extended improvs where the tension just built and built until it resolved, and I wasn't even aware how tense I was until the resolve (he snuck it all in there somehow, chorus after chorus), that I would be perfectly happy to have PM represent the creativity of humankind to whatever god, alien, or just the universe in general might be watching.

I remembered the Nobel Prize acceptance speech by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, wherein he said something to the effect of, "...The true artist reveals that one word of Truth: "Logos," to a world blinded by lies and deception..."

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You take me too seriously, Jazzaluk. My coment was only intended to say this thread has been going on a while, as if there was a spirited discussion going on in my living room at a party, I dozed off, awoke, and everyone was still at it.


"Then why didn't he?" Is always my response.

Once again, I apologize for starting this thread. That Jarrett quote got to me, and we all know he can be a world-class asshole.
Did I mention my semi-hollow is out of tune?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

I like to reserve the art label for creations that communicate on an emotional level.. IMO, if it doesn't do this then it is craft... even if it is extremely good craft.

I reserve the label of craft when the function outweighs the form in importance.

This becomes a lot of fun with students, when I (playing devil's advocate) tell them (while looking at slides) Charles and Ray Eames were artists, and John Monteleone is a craftsman. Always sparks great debate.

[Pining for the Fjords]

I agree with Baltar Hornbeek - Ezra Pound rules - general statements are like cheques drawn on a bank - and Ezra would know as his father Homer was the director of the American Mint - that a currency is only as good as the reserves that are behind it. To make positive comments about a style that is essentially bankrupt you need a lot of spin doctoring happening - it's the way of the world unfortunately but there it is.

[doramide7]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I get what Jarrett is saying, agree with much of it, and I think he's entitled to his opinion. an artist is a person who makes art. They can be formally trained or ignorant of all precedent. They can be six years old or 106. Technical ability does not necessarily "equal" art.

What matters is the art. Pop music, when done well, is an artform--Many "important" jazz musicians would probably like to doubt that, but it's hard to see the reality of things with your head so far up your own ass.

I personally don't see anything wrong with the guitarist that you encountered.
He says Jazz is learned on the streets, and that is very true to an extent; and he is entitled to his own opinion.
He may not have been trying to show you up, that's just the way he prefers to play. Too many folks just affiliate burning with "no soul" as soon as you hear it when in reality I think they mean to say "He plays too fast for my taste".

[zachledgerwood]

Jim Hall is definitely an artist, i think probably one of the real jazz artist, he really plays his music, no one else's

[Jazzyteach65]

Originally Posted by zachledgerwood

Jim Hall is definitely an artist, i think probably one of the real jazz artist, he really plays his music, no one else's

great point!