Allan Holdsworth - Good? or just Difficult?

Banksia · #1 03-14-2009, 04:57 AM

I've never been able to decide about Holdsworth. Lately I've been listening to his early stuff a lot - IOU, Metal Fatigue, Atavachron. There's no denying he's got chops and when you see or hear him playing chords it's clear that he has a very clear plan to what he's doing. I can't decide whether I like it though. Sometimes it seems brilliant and so original, next time it just seems long-winded and self-indulgent. I feel the same way about The Remedy by Kurt Rosenwinkel. At least all that album needs is for each track to be 8 minutes shorter - but obviously, playing live they will stretch out more.

So that's my question: Is Holdsworth good, or just complicated, nebulous and difficult?

m78w · #2 03-14-2009, 06:40 AM

It's funny you mentioned Kurt alongside Allan because Kurt has stated that Allan is one of his biggest influences. Most people don't hear that connection but it's in their, especially in their approach to legato playing.

I like Allan, it can be a bit much after a while, just sheets of notes, but for me it's inspiring and can really push my playing in a new direction.

Though I probably couldn't listen to him everyday.

MW

Banksia · #3 03-14-2009, 06:54 AM

I think Kurt and Allan also both feel comfortable with some fairly "out" chords, knowing that the full context of the piece will bring the chords back "in" There is that improvised solo piece that Kurt did at some radio station - the clip is on YouTube - where you can see that he has such a strong idea about what he's doing that he knows he can always come back "in."

emmadet · #4 03-14-2009, 03:20 PM

Allan can float like noone else I've ever heard, like Wayne or Trane. Quite unlike the 8th noty picking style of fx Pat Martino, George Benson, and Kurt too. He's free to wail away and then suddenly come down and pick up a beat whenever he feels like.
In addition to that, he has this heavyish sound that has a huge appeal to the rock & heavy cats.
And then there's his stretch chord approach, that cats such as Kurt & especially Ben Monder has made good use of. The usual jazzguitar stock voicings we all play, and some of the more esoteric ones too, does seem to imply a certain older jazz style - Allan may dissolve a straight altered chord into it's upper voicings, leaving the governing major 3rd out of the chord. Such "empty" chords give his harmonic universe a quite different neoromantic flavour. Or he'll maybe voice a common major lydian chord upside down; 9th, #11th & 13th in the bottom; root, fifth & major 3rd at the top. And most likely with a nice b9 interval between the #11 & the fifth.
So, to me, there's different Allans pointing in different directions. I'm a huge fan, and his fans tend to be huge. As a model character though he's quite unique and useless. Clones don't count, and going in his direction will tend to make you sound like a wannabee. Like the way Jaco sits on harmonics.
After many years of gigging, he's still likely to spew out just one note too many in his solos onstage, cluttering the melodies up a bit...the records though are deliberately crafted. Maybe try 16 Men of Tain, & Sand too in addition to the ones you mentioned

Banksia · #5 03-19-2009, 07:04 AM

Interesting that you say "his fans tend to be huge." I was watching some AH clips on YT and there are only ever two types of comments: "Brilliant" or "That was the worst music I've ever heard" If any artist can polarise people like that , they must be doing something right. I'm not even sure I like him but I've got 9 of his albums, just in case.

franco6719 · #6 03-22-2009, 04:16 AM

I think ALL Youtube comments are like that. They rag on EVERYBODY. Scofield plays "wrong" notes, Metheny plays too many notes, Martino is just a bunch of "memorized bebop licks", Wes Montgomert didn't know anything about chords, Joe Pass is "boring", blah, blah, blah.

I still feel the same way about Holdsworth though that I always have and that you seem to feel about him: he's obviously doing some amazinglt complicated and fast stuff, but I'm not sure what it's all about. Is this interesting and enjoyable or just complicated?

Bailz · #7 03-22-2009, 10:27 AM

incredible. holdsworth is one of, if not my favourite guitarist.
I absolutely love his playing. ive getting really into 'none too soon' recently with awesome versions of very early and inner urge on it.

nothing but praise for him.

John

Banksia · #8 03-23-2009, 05:01 AM

Here's a site I found with a lot of Holdsworth Transcriptions on PowerTab (includes standard notation) and midi files. At least 20 songs going back to Road Games + Metal Fatigue

Oneiric Moor 2007 :: Allan Holdsworth Fans Community Resources

ES350 · #9 03-31-2009, 12:57 PM

When he hit on the first Tony Williams album around '75, it was a revelation---very horn-like, free, pretty straight (although distorted) tone, and he was blowing. I saw them live with that band and it was very, very good. I haven't heard anything like that from him since...

P.J. · #10 07-09-2009, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banksia

I've never been able to decide about Holdsworth. Lately I've been listening to his early stuff a lot - IOU, Metal Fatigue, Atavachron. There's no denying he's got chops and when you see or hear him playing chords it's clear that he has a very clear plan to what he's doing. I can't decide whether I like it though. Sometimes it seems brilliant and so original, next time it just seems long-winded and self-indulgent. I feel the same way about The Remedy by Kurt Rosenwinkel. At least all that album needs is for each track to be 8 minutes shorter - but obviously, playing live they will stretch out more.

So that's my question: Is Holdsworth good, or just complicated, nebulous and difficult?

I think his playing is incredible and I have been a fan for a long time but I can see how his music might be "difficult" to enjoy at times, especially w/ some solos that just seem to go on forever. He has been a big influence in my trying to play different intervals in chords and getting my left hand fingers to do what I want them to do.

His solo on 4.15 Bradford Executive off Sand has to be one of his all time classics. Wow that is some incredible playing!!

=-) PJ

mike walker · #11 07-09-2009, 07:35 AM

[quote=P.J.;40689]
His solo on 4.15 Bradford Executive off Sand has to be one of his all time classics. Wow that is some incredible playing!!

If i quote one solo for people to listen to of Allans, it's that one.

Stunning.

Also his note choice on a track called 'Distance versus Desire' is really beautiful.

Luan · #12 07-09-2009, 04:29 PM

Allan is the best. Listen to the song "devil take the hindmost". He is god.

Stackabones · #13 07-09-2009, 04:33 PM

I love his tone and phrasing, but I can't stand listening to him for more than a "song" or two.

mike walker · #14 07-09-2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stackabones

I love his tone and phrasing, but I can't stand listening to him for more than a "song" or two.

Think the thing with Allan, for me is to try and get a collection of 'Best of"
tunes.

Albums for a best of would (IMO) Road games (tokyo dreams is beautiful)
Metal fatigue (title track is killer as is devil take the hindmost)
Sand (bradford executive and others, the track written to his father is a tearjerker) Secrets, Atavachron- much stuff from both albums.

These tracks are different enough in impro and sound and construction to listen thru as an albums worth.

gravitas · #15 07-09-2009, 08:32 PM

Sometimes Allan can seem overdone to me. I know a long time ago I used to argue vehemently that he was a "hack," but there are some performances of him in his prime that just leave me speechless.

YouTube - Allan Holdsworth Low Levels High Stakes

His solo in the middle of that one is a force of nature. It's got everything: tone, dynamics, phrasing, energy... There aren't many other people who do the sheets of sound thing like that.

Stackabones · #16 07-09-2009, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike walker

Think the thing with Allan, for me is to try and get a collection of 'Best of"
tunes.

Albums for a best of would (IMO) Road games (tokyo dreams is beautiful)
Metal fatigue (title track is killer as is devil take the hindmost)
Sand (bradford executive and others, the track written to his father is a tearjerker) Secrets, Atavachron- much stuff from both albums.

These tracks are different enough in impro and sound and construction to listen thru as an albums worth.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I've already been through those. It's remarkable material and your selection does feature a good intro to AH. I've seen him live: I was fan going into the show and my interest really tapered off after that.

In all honesty, I don't find his music challenging -- to me, it's rather tiresome. His chops are mind-boggling and he works with extremely talented musicians, but I am not attracted to anything he's ever written and his recordings don't call out to me for repeated listenings.

mike walker · #17 07-10-2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stackabones

Thanks for the suggestions, but I've already been through those. It's remarkable material and your selection does feature a good intro to AH. I've seen him live: I was fan going into the show and my interest really tapered off after that.

In all honesty, I don't find his music challenging -- to me, it's rather tiresome. His chops are mind-boggling and he works with extremely talented musicians, but I am not attracted to anything he's ever written and his recordings don't call out to me for repeated listenings.

Fair enough then, Stacks!

I saw him live. It was extremely boring. I went again the next night. I lasted 3 tunes and left.

tele jazz · #18 07-10-2009, 02:19 AM

i like metal fatigue for its attempt to do something different within the genre. however, the lyrics are terrible.

sometimes holdsworth sounds great, other time he sounds like a toothache.

derek · #19 07-10-2009, 02:49 PM

Holdsworth is a master. However, there are times when I dig him and other times when it is too much for me to process.

Smitty · #20 07-12-2009, 09:52 AM

He's ahead of the curve--an innovator. He, Wayne Krantz, and cats like that...they're where jazz and music and general should be going: forward. I sometimes have to agree with the Youtube comments (especially about Martino...) but dissing on Holdsworth is impossible if you're a serious musician. Like him or not, the world he's created for himself is unique, and that's what matters most.
To answer the topic's question, I think that the music is more difficult than it is good, but that's not saying it isn't "good." It's a musical exploration for musicians, and difficulty is generally viewed as being positive through the perspective of respectful musicians.
Alex

arenan · #21 07-18-2009, 08:06 AM

I love AH's music. But I can see the other side, too. I think you can leave it all alone and let the other side of the coin just enjoy! I know some great musicians who explain their relationship towards AH's music somewhat lacking a real emotional vibe.I understand.You like it or not.The best is that his sound is so xearophonic; you cannot even decide!Keeps annoying you!But we can decide..

???questions:

on Secrets there are two vocalists. Amazing ppl! Unlucky me..have not found anything..Share some info! They are so good!

-A

P.J. · #22 07-28-2009, 10:48 AM

What does "xearophonic" mean?

PJ

Meggy · #23 07-29-2009, 12:46 PM

In 1987 I think I must have desperately wanted to BE Allan Holdsworth, because I bought an Ibanez AH10 guitar in Forest Green. I believe Allan hardly ever (if at all) actually used the AH10 (typical for me to buy a guitar that the endorsee didn't actually like! Lol). Twenty-two odd years later and I have given up trying to play like him (actually I did that a long time ago...) but I still have the axe. I have it strung with 10-46 (heavier than Allan uses) and have fitted an additional PAF type humbucker in the neck position. I think it is actually a pretty nice guitar for fusion type playing with a warmer, softer tone than a strat (even allowing for the pickups) and a nice ebony fingerboard. Has anyone else got one of these things just out of interest?

P.J. · #24 08-02-2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meggy

In 1987 I think I must have desperately wanted to BE Allan Holdsworth, because I bought an Ibanez AH10 guitar in Forest Green. I believe Allan hardly ever (if at all) actually used the AH10 (typical for me to buy a guitar that the endorsee didn't actually like! Lol). Twenty-two odd years later and I have given up trying to play like him (actually I did that a long time ago...) but I still have the axe. I have it strung with 10-46 (heavier than Allan uses) and have fitted an additional PAF type humbucker in the neck position. I think it is actually a pretty nice guitar for fusion type playing with a warmer, softer tone than a strat (even allowing for the pickups) and a nice ebony fingerboard. Has anyone else got one of these things just out of interest?

Did this guitar just have a bridge p/u stock? Can you post a picture?
Thanks, PJ

Meggy · #25 08-03-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J.

Did this guitar just have a bridge p/u stock? Can you post a picture?
Thanks, PJ

Yes, originally it just had a stock bridge humbucker (an Ibanez AH special developed specifically for Allan). Interestingly, this pickup is not a very high output, I have measured it at about 8 Kohm or thereabouts. In addition I have put in a Tonerider Alnico 4 PAF in the neck which matches very well, although at an earlier stage I had a classic strat stack (Seymour Duncan) in the neck pos which I didn't like much. Both the humbuckers are now fitted with series-parallel switching via push-pull pots. Also sadly the trem arm broke when I did a stupid and unnecessary "dive bomb" (forgive me - I was young and foolish) but I may not fix this as I don't like trem arms anymore anyway! I suppose the guitar might be worth a bit more unaltered but I do like it better as it is now. It also has the serial number J8600004 which I believe may mean it is the 4th guitar they made in 1986 though I doubt this affects it's value much. Cheers for being interested, I'll try and post a picture soon.

duncm · #26 09-10-2009, 10:54 PM

so many great human beings seem to sum it up with this one similarity.learn all there is to know .then.. either throw it away or put it on the shelve.after a life in music.i am just beginning to understand.that most greatness has at least one foot outside the forest.in my opinion this is the highest form of art.holdsworth is one for

sure.

Jazzarian · #27 09-12-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banksia

So that's my question: Is Holdsworth good, or just complicated, nebulous and difficult?

That depends.

In a good band with keyboards, he's exceptional. He's original. He's melodic as all hell. He's incredibly fast.

In a 3 piece band with no keyboards, he bores me out of my mind in 10 minutes or less.

I've listened to him for over 30 years now. I've seen him a few times, live.

From what I've heard from his recent CD, he's still fantastic.

Much easier on the ears than Scott Henderson or Scofield too.

Jazzarian · #28 09-12-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banksia

So that's my question: Is Holdsworth good, or just complicated, nebulous and difficult?

Kindly check out the following by Holdsworth:

YouTube - Allan Holdsworth - Countdown

TK_AK · #29 09-23-2009, 10:06 AM

YouTube - Tokyo Dream

Tokyo Dream,

beautiful and strange Holdsworth melody

Meggy · #30 09-23-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzarian

Kindly check out the following by Holdsworth:

YouTube - Allan Holdsworth - Countdown

I had not heard this one before, Holdsworth playing Charlie Parker of all things! He is just astounding on this one - I already loved his music, but now I think I have even greater respect for him. Truely one of the few true geniuses of the guitar!