"Free Improv" Guitar (Derek Bailey content)

[cubistguitar]

I love the really nutty players, always had a thing for Derek's playing. I wonder how others at this forum will see this kind of thing. Free Improv seems to be about texture and surprise, not always the most musical experience, but not alltogether unmusical either. I present Derek deconstructing a standard. I do expect many slings and arrows from the players steeped in tradition.

YouTube Video

[Reg]

I dig Brecker's Slings and Arrows, great tune. Have you ever listened to music by Scriabin, his last few compositions ... there are tons of other examples by tons of composers, my point is simple... nothing he's playing is new and his interpretations are somewhere in the middle as far as arrangements... And if you check out players like Ceil Taylor, Coleman, Dolphy, Archie shepp, Jackie Mclean, Anthony Braxton and many of the jazz players who went in that direction of music, you might get a better perspective of what's already been termed Free Jazz... which is generally associated with Free improve. There is a little involved, to break tradition you usually need to be aware and understand what it is. All that being said...I dug the version of Laura... thanks for posting... There wasn't that much that was surprising though... Reg

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

I present Derek deconstructing a standard.

Where's the video? Ballads is wonderful album from an endlessly fascinating player. I don't agree that he is deconstructing the standard. Far from it. A unique interpretation, imho. It says so much about jazz guitar that there is a multi-page thread ongoing about Grant Green. Some people hate him; some love him. The same is the case for Derek Bailey. By the way, check out his acoustic album "Aida." One of my faves.

[cubistguitar]

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Where's the video? Ballads is wonderful album from an endlessly fascinating player. I don't agree that he is deconstructing the standard. Far from it. A unique interpretation, imho. It says so much about jazz guitar that there is a multi-page thread ongoing about Grant Green. Some people hate him; some love him. The same is the case for Derek Bailey. By the way, check out his acoustic album "Aida." One of my faves.

Yeah , I don't care for most of the youtube clips of Derek. I am a devoted follower of the Bailey. True he doesn't really destroy this one so much, but he is thinking about improv differently than a jazzer. I adore Aida, one of my first exposure to the man. His playing is so intense at times on that record I just can't hardly take it. Ever heard the feedback record "string theory". Anyway, i like to bring Derek up in mixed company, he can usually rub somebody the wrong way.

Maybe Eugene can tick off someone more effectively.

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This thread is about derek and here is one clip that i like better, a little fragmented video, but excellent playing by the master Derek.

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REG i love free jazz, but Derek doesn't specialize in any kind of jazz, just thought a jazz standard might break the ole ice. For free jazz I like the Ayler inpired Marc Ribot work of late.

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[cubistguitar]

Here is a funny little meditation on a funky groove. Nice record cutting too, very enjoyable , Bill Laswell makes this sound so "not jazz", "not improv" by playing four on the floor, DeJohnette is holding back a mountain of crap he could unleash, and Derek is almost connected with his bandmates here. Sometimes he just ignore everyone and plays by himself.

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[Reg]

Hey cubis... would dig hearing something of yours... I played a lot interactive or should I say reactive... music back in the early 60's... composed a ton of free interpretative style of music... the actual notation for musicians to read.
Ever listen to any of jack bruces free stuff, 68 through early 70's , last years of Cream and after... some with John Mclaughlin... was cool, lots of energy... and great players. I dug it at the time. Reg

[cubistguitar]

I am a skronky rock player and have no illusions about how good I am. I am not good. But I love the guitar and am back studying the guitar with a slant towards jazz, because i love the music and the energy that great playwers have brought to these forms. I am ahack that loves to be there and make a joyful noise.

I'll record something for you and get back. I guessI'll be real skronky and post in this derek thread.

[cosmic gumbo]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

I love the really nutty players

Are they nutcases? Do they belong in the nuthouse? If you really love them, please show some respect and don't call them nutty. Is that their legacy?

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

...don't call them nutty. Is that their legacy?

Hey! Monk wrote a great tune called "Nutty." It's not a dirty word. (Superb reading of it on the Monk/Coltrane Carnegie Hall record.)

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

Yeah , I don't care for most of the youtube clips of Derek. I am a devoted follower of the Bailey. True he doesn't really destroy this one so much, but he is thinking about improv differently than a jazzer. I adore Aida, one of my first exposure to the man. His playing is so intense at times on that record I just can't hardly take it. Ever heard the feedback record "string theory". Anyway, i like to bring Derek up in mixed company, he can usually rub somebody the wrong way.

Maybe Eugene can tick off someone more effectively.



This thread is about derek and here is one clip that i like better, a little fragmented video, but excellent playing by the master Derek.


REG i love free jazz, but Derek doesn't specialize in any kind of jazz, just thought a jazz standard might break the ole ice. For free jazz I like the Ayler inpired Marc Ribot work of late.

I am ready to inject a few pints of paint up my rectum and spray on a canvas.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Are they nutcases? Do they belong in the nuthouse? If you really love them, please show some respect and don't call them nutty. Is that their legacy?

Scratch your nuts. Nuts=Balls
Nutty=Ballsy
Nice compliment!
David

[TruthHertz]

YouTube Video

Quite an impressive bass player too. Teaches at New England Conservatory.
I'm glad to see there is a very fresh new generation of players exploring the possibilities of guitar, in the instrument and in the music.
David

[cubistguitar]

If you don't think Eugene is nutty, well just ask him, he'll tell you.

One thing I always respected about the some of the avant is they have a childlike sense to their expressionism, a inside joke sort of thing. They want to play at a super high level, but without the intellectual baggage. Just a loud wild noise, not unlike the early blues and jazz players in some respects , to entertain peoples eyes and ears with ones performance. Cecil Taylor banging about on the piano chanting nah, nah, nah and babababa is quite the shedding of bebop for something a little more primitive and visceral. Ayler writing diatonic marches for bebop musicians? Eugene powering up the rake is close to that for me as well. Hilarious and not music, but the shock and giggle is wonderful. I really think Derek was having laugh at music too, just the way he would make the joke, elaborate and almost painfully cruel, but a joke nonetheless.

[Reg]

I'm alright with whatever anyone wants to say or play, as I said I played some free versions of ? back in the 60's, but the level of musicianship really appears to have dropped... or am I missing another point... part of the final product is not having the developed skills on the instrument which might have too much influence... At what level does intellectualism become baggage... I've always defined as though process as compared to actually level of understanding.
So if there was to be a philosophy...existentialism is out the window, and no beginning or end... simply the now, am I getting close... or does it even matter... apples and oranges, result and process... I'm just curious... I'm not young, but was and was very much into the intellect... always interested in where things are going now..Reg

[Vihar]

Sometimes it's hard to tell that kinda stuff and the emperor's new clothes apart.

[Meggy]

Just coming in as someone not really into this stuff, or having listened to much of it either. I'm not ticked off by any of it, certainly not Eugene - that did at least make me smile. And I did like the version of Laura. I think one thing I normally respond to in music is melody, and harmony also I guess, and the two combined in a pleasing way. So I do find it hard to know what I'm meant to take from a lot of this music - I can't here anything resembling a melody, and the harmony seems somewhat unclear, or also non-existant. I don't know what it is that is being communicated - whatever it is, I don't seem to be able to receive it! So a lot of it leaves me unmoved.

Not saying any of this in a hostile kind of way, I more intrigued really, so I really would be interested to hear what those of you that are into this stuff have to say. What is it that you like/get from this music? Is it the case that you either get it or you don't? If so I don't think I do sadly, but maybe one can learn to like it?

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Scratch your nuts. Nuts=Balls
Nutty=Ballsy
Nice compliment!
David

Indeed

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by Meggy

Just coming in as someone not really into this stuff, or having listened to much of it either. I'm not ticked off by any of it, certainly not Eugene - that did at least make me smile. And I did like the version of Laura. I think one thing I normally respond to in music is melody, and harmony also I guess, and the two combined in a pleasing way. So I do find it hard to know what I'm meant to take from a lot of this music - I can't here anything resembling a melody, and the harmony seems somewhat unclear, or also non-existant. I don't know what it is that is being communicated - whatever it is, I don't seem to be able to receive it! So a lot of it leaves me unmoved.

Not saying any of this in a hostile kind of way, I more intrigued really, so I really would be interested to hear what those of you that are into this stuff have to say. What is it that you like/get from this music? Is it the case that you either get it or you don't? If so I don't think I do sadly, but maybe one can learn to like it?

Great post Meggy, with well worded questions I've been wondering about too.

For example, I get this one:

YouTube Video

Then there are performances where I get parts of it, but then I wonder if that's all there is to it? Was that the point of it, or just a happy accident?

I mean, I get the rhythm part in this following one, it's in time, for a while at least. Then for example there's a nice melodic thing that the 6 string bassist does, from about 1:49 to 1:55:

YouTube Video

But I don't get much anything out of Brozman's or Sharrock's solo in it. So I wonder, isn't it too much hassle for a few - if any - pleasing moments?

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Meggy

I really would be interested to hear what those of you that are into this stuff have to say. What is it that you like/get from this music?

It's definitely a player's music. It's an experience music. It's largely "you should be there" music. it is a lot more fun actually creating and using space and time than it is a matter of creating a product. At least for me.
When I'm doing my version of free improv, it's a lot of listening, feeling, reacting to a whole lot of things, and for an audience present there, they share in the immediacy of it, they can understand a lot more than what comes across in most recordings.
Even in recordings where the performances really stand up to close scrutiny and wonderful listening, there was something in the creative moment that was different from what got recorded. It's hard to capture spirit in a recording, but when you're there, and you have enough understanding to know the language in use, it's very easy to feel and be a part of it.

I'm sure others will have a different take, but this is my experience.
David

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by Vihar

Great post Meggy, with well worded questions I've been wondering about too.

For example, I get this one:



Then there are performances where I get parts of it, but then I wonder if that's all there is to it? Was that the point of it, or just a happy accident?

I mean, I get the rhythm part in this following one, it's in time, for a while at least. Then for example there's a nice melodic thing that the 6 string bassist does, from about 1:49 to 1:55:



But I don't get much anything out of Brozman's or Sharrock's solo in it. So I wonder, isn't it too much hassle for a few - if any - pleasing moments?

I get the first one too - I don't think I'd rush out to buy a recording or anything, but at least I feel I understand it. But then it does have obvious melody and harmony going on, so not really what I would call "free". But the second one sounds like anarchy most of the time - which is maybe the point! Perhaps it's a personality thing, and maybe my personality is such that I'm not comfortable with such a loose, unstructured approach to things. Possibly this is the very thing that others actually like in the music - fair enough if so.

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

It's definitely a player's music. It's an experience music. It's largely "you should be there" music. it is a lot more fun actually creating and using space and time than it is a matter of creating a product. At least for me.
When I'm doing my version of free improv, it's a lot of listening, feeling, reacting to a whole lot of things, and for an audience present there, they share in the immediacy of it, they can understand a lot more than what comes across in most recordings.
Even in recordings where the performances really stand up to close scrutiny and wonderful listening, there was something in the creative moment that was different from what got recorded. It's hard to capture spirit in a recording, but when you're there, and you have enough understanding to know the language in use, it's very easy to feel and be a part of it.

I'm sure others will have a different take, but this is my experience.
David

Thanks David, I can understand intellectually what you are saying, and your explanation does make sense that way. But (no surprise!) that still doesn't allow me to start to enjoy the music. The "you have to be there" idea I do appreciate though. It is a frustrating thing for me though - kind of like if you need to have a joke explained - you may understand intellectually why it works as a joke, but you still don't actually laugh...

[TruthHertz]

Meggy, y'know I think the whole term Free Improv Jazz is a misnomer. It implies that there is this thing that has rules in the lack of rules, form in the lack of form, and there are actually people out there what know if it's really genuine or not. Well I'm going to say, it ain't so.
Let's call it an open field where people gather together, and within those camps, people make up rules of communication based on their own tastes and sensibilites. Some will be very well organized, some take great joy in still finding out what works or not.
Now from the outside, where there is a country run by members of congress, a president and large multinational entites, looking at that field and calling it The Country Of Free Jazz is not at all true.
So find something that resonates with you. Maybe it's Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert, hmm no changes, utilizes a valid syntax and lexicon of jazz, the guy playing worked with Miles, let's say he's doing free jazz. Hey there is no congress of free jazz to say he's not valid because he doesn't squawk like a dying beast (well maybe...) so he made his rules, and you can learn a lot from him. Check out his recording Belonging. Some pretty free stuff in ensemble playing. I'd say that's a nice place to be able to hear what they're doing, and see if what you observe helps you decode some of what others are doing.
Note that different camps have different rule books. Allow for that.

Let me also say that if you find others to play with, decent players that know how to control a line, suggest that you just play for 5 minutes off of any kind of idea that gets thrown into the mix. You'll find it's scary, that you might regress back to habits to find safety from the void. And you'll realize what a liberating, brave, freeing, scary, embarassing, affirming and satisfying thing it is when you find that 18 second moment when it all comes together. Try to hold that bubble for longer and you will admire the craft of these players.
Try to convey what you're thinking just using your instrument, and you'll appreciate the power of an entire ensemble piloting the ship.
And when you're done, if you've recorded it, I guarantee, you will understand what's there more than your girlfriend you give it to as a mix tape.

Does this make sense?
David

[cubistguitar]

I definitely think the free playing is best done by a committed player, a student of music and craft. I don't think you have to bring jazz into it. Often the players are schooled in jazz and bring that to the stew, but that is one path. Some rock musicians really have the feel for this sort of thing, blues at its zenith is free, some classically trained players are improvising more than reading, electronic musicians jam electro-acoustic music all over the world.

On the other hand, i like a little bit of the blues, so a great free jazz ensemble is hard to beat for the screaming roaring feeling of being swept away by the chaos of the world, but there are some still quiet moments also.

[cubistguitar]

I really like the feeling of this stuff from Miles.

YouTube Video

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

I really like the feeling of this stuff from Miles.

Great stuff!

Have you ever checked out the live Bitch's Brew videos? Man there was some awesome stuff on it. There is def some things in it I would call free jazz at one of it's best levels.

[whatswisdom]

Yeah, Miles. BTW, you gotta check out Cecil Taylor's early stuff on Blue Note et al, to appreciate the genre. That's when boundaries were broken and creativity took over. His take on Monk's "Bemsha Swing," the first track on his debut, Jazz Advance, is amazing.

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

I really like the feeling of this stuff from Miles.

Sounds like modal improvisation over a single E flat dominant chord and a pretty steady funk groove.

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Meggy, y'know I think the whole term Free Improv Jazz is a misnomer. It implies that there is this thing that has rules in the lack of rules, form in the lack of form, and there are actually people out there what know if it's really genuine or not. Well I'm going to say, it ain't so.
Let's call it an open field where people gather together, and within those camps, people make up rules of communication based on their own tastes and sensibilites. Some will be very well organized, some take great joy in still finding out what works or not.
Now from the outside, where there is a country run by members of congress, a president and large multinational entites, looking at that field and calling it The Country Of Free Jazz is not at all true.
So find something that resonates with you. Maybe it's Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert, hmm no changes, utilizes a valid syntax and lexicon of jazz, the guy playing worked with Miles, let's say he's doing free jazz. Hey there is no congress of free jazz to say he's not valid because he doesn't squawk like a dying beast (well maybe...) so he made his rules, and you can learn a lot from him. Check out his recording Belonging. Some pretty free stuff in ensemble playing. I'd say that's a nice place to be able to hear what they're doing, and see if what you observe helps you decode some of what others are doing.
Note that different camps have different rule books. Allow for that.

Let me also say that if you find others to play with, decent players that know how to control a line, suggest that you just play for 5 minutes off of any kind of idea that gets thrown into the mix. You'll find it's scary, that you might regress back to habits to find safety from the void. And you'll realize what a liberating, brave, freeing, scary, embarassing, affirming and satisfying thing it is when you find that 18 second moment when it all comes together. Try to hold that bubble for longer and you will admire the craft of these players.
Try to convey what you're thinking just using your instrument, and you'll appreciate the power of an entire ensemble piloting the ship.
And when you're done, if you've recorded it, I guarantee, you will understand what's there more than your girlfriend you give it to as a mix tape.

Does this make sense?
David

David, thank you for persevering and trying to explain things for me! Sort of makes sense - I think really you are expanding on the "you have to do it to appreciate it" point you made earlier, and which I do accept! Not that there are very many musicians into free jazz in Lincolnshire, so it may be hard for me to organise a free jazz jam! And I wouldn't want to deny the skill and craft of free jazz musicians. I take you point about there being no one type of free jazz, and the misnomer implied by giving it a label too.

The rules vs. lack of rules thing - I don't know, but I admit I am a bit uncomfortable with the idea of making up your own. I seem to understand a lot of music, certainly Western harmony-based music, maybe some from other cultures too, without having to know what the rules are (although I have studied music theory). There seems to be something almost instinctive about the way people respond to such music. But can you really make up your own rules, and expect the listener to understand them in the same instinctive way? I have this kind of problem with things like Schoenberg's 12-tone stuff too.

But (sorry) somehow in the end, I doubt it is for me - I like having a structure/melody/overall harmony to work off -and in a way I do think I am able to express what I'm thinking, despite the possible restrictions that the structure implies (actually, there still seems to be a world of possibilities, even when playing more conventional music). Not to say that there is a lack of discipline in free jazz playing - I'm sure it has it's own demands in that respect. The Miles clip is OK for me, but I can't help thinking more fondly of his mid '50s quintet for example!

A personality thing maybe in the end, and really, I do appreciate your taking the time to try and convey what it is you get from this music. It's out there if I ever feel the urge I guess!

[cubistguitar]

Originally Posted by Vihar

Sounds like modal improvisation over a single E flat dominant chord and a pretty steady funk groove.

TRUE, its not atonal or constantly changing, but my point was the feeling and energy there is similar and part of a movement in music at that time to get beyond the 60s music. I like the funk based music of ornette and ronald shannon jackson and think of it all being free-er than bop.

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

So find something that resonates with you. Maybe it's Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert, hmm no changes, utilizes a valid syntax and lexicon of jazz, the guy playing worked with Miles, let's say he's doing free jazz. Hey there is no congress of free jazz to say he's not valid because he doesn't squawk like a dying beast (well maybe...) so he made his rules, and you can learn a lot from him. Check out his recording Belonging. Some pretty free stuff in ensemble playing. I'd say that's a nice place to be able to hear what they're doing, and see if what you observe helps you decode some of what others are doing.

Didn't really pick up on this bit of advice when I answered this morning - I do like Keith Jarrett a lot already - never thought of him as a free musician, so maybe this is a way in for me!

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Meggy

Didn't really pick up on this bit of advice when I answered this morning - I do like Keith Jarrett a lot already - never thought of him as a free musician, so maybe this is a way in for me!

Hey there Meggy,
during the early 70's Keith Jarrett had a quartet with Jan Garbarek, Palle Danielleson and Jon Christensen. They experimented with all sorts of testing the perimeters of jazz and genres, and as a really good working group, they looked for forms based more on what was happening, where it would go, how they could direct the form, than what the changes were they had to blow on.
These same questions are ones Jarrett chose to work on in a solo context later on. During that era though, that was just what his group did. Same as his earlier employer, Miles. It was an evolutionary process, see?
Check out his CD Belonging, and here's a clip of that group. Does it help when you can follow their collective thought process?
Try it on for size.
David

YouTube Video