"Free Improv" Guitar (Derek Bailey content)

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

TRUE, its not atonal or constantly changing, but my point was the feeling and energy there is similar and part of a movement in music at that time to get beyond the 60s music. I like the funk based music of ornette and ronald shannon jackson and think of it all being free-er than bop.

I agree, if I wouldn't pay attention to the details, it would sound like most other free jazz performances. I don't know if Miles ever fully abandoned time for example... or tonality.

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Hey there Meggy,
during the early 70's Keith Jarrett had a quartet with Jan Garbarek, Palle Danielleson and Jon Christensen. They experimented with all sorts of testing the perimeters of jazz and genres, and as a really good working group, they looked for forms based more on what was happening, where it would go, how they could direct the form, than what the changes were they had to blow on.
These same questions are ones Jarrett chose to work on in a solo context later on. During that era though, that was just what his group did. Same as his earlier employer, Miles. It was an evolutionary process, see?
Check out his CD Belonging, and here's a clip of that group. Does it help when you can follow their collective thought process?
Try it on for size.
David

Embarrassing in a way, but I can remember actually having a vinyl copy of Belonging when I was about 17 or so, and just getting into jazz - I didn't realise then (and haven't thought about it since) that this might be considered an album with "free" content. I just thought it was some hip modern jazz! I must have lent the album and not got it back.

But a good thing to remind me of TH, maybe my take on jazz has become a bit less inclusive as the years have gone by - not a good thing I guess. Absolutely yes I can listen to that music and enjoy it, and as you point out, there is a collective thought process one can hear in there. This music does have things like melody and harmony (and some guiding structure also? - I'd love to know what's on those music stands!) though - I don't know if I will ever get very keen on the noise/atonal kind of free jazz!

The point about evolution I do take as well, and of course, tracing that evolution back, one gets to more "traditional" structured forms of jazz. Probably there is no clear dividing line between the two, and perhaps it's not such a good thing to put different jazz artists into boxes marked "weird free stuff" and "normal jazz" if you see what I mean?

So well done - you have indeed found something in the free jazz spectrum that I like and can understand, and in fact reminded me of some stuff my younger self used to like and had forgotten about! Hearing him play, I still think Keith Jarrett is an incredible musician too. Maybe I have become a bit too rigid in my listening habits recently, not that I'm ever going to tire of Wes though!

[TruthHertz]

Hey Meggy
So listen to this and be patient. Listen for the things you hear in good jazz, in good composition, in Beethoven: An idea, motiv. Listen as it's taken and developed. Listen to what the other player adds to what is going on. Who's soloing? Who's comping? Are they just making noise? Are they swinging?
Is that melodic drumming? Is that percussive piano playing? Can you see how it can sound like chaotic noise if you walked into a room after listening to Wes? But can you see there's something going on?
What do you think?

YouTube Video

I'm curious
David
Oh yeah, and the drummer, he's no hack. He's been playing the most genuine jazz since he was a kid. When he was young, he was Charlie Parker's drummer of choice.

[brwnhornet59]

These are very musical examples of free jazz at it's best!!! IMHO

[cubistguitar]

Here is another fine duet with drummer.

YouTube Video

Love Cecil Taylor's music and all, but his jazz roots show a bit. Classical roots too. And that absolutely is his way and he shouldn't change it for me.I think it is still of worth to hear this sort of un stylistic clamour from fine players having a great time. It is of course almost without direction or purpose, no real melody or harmony, no typical sense of development, but something still kept my attention.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by cubistguitar

It is of course almost without direction or purpose, no real melody or harmony, no typical sense of development....

might I suggest that the clip is one part of a larger composition? You know the story about the 4 blind men and the elephant? They only touch a small part and assume that is the entirety.

Of course. I was on the bus earlier. It was full of people. They were all talking. Not to me of course. Why do they bother, so many people making all that senseless noise. Why do they do it? What does it mean? No words, no communication, no sense of conversation...

YouTube Video

He may speak with a different lexicon and syntax than you, but he speaks- to me at least.

I think this little dialogue here demonstrates beyond explanation the complex nature of appreciating these things we call Free Improvisation.
David

[cubistguitar]

Jitnry #2 is a classic of Improv. Such a compact statement from the genius. A lot of beauty in that short sweet solo. The microphone and recording have made such things crystaline and everlasting. Go back again and agian for repeated pleasures and little nuances, event the noises of the artist moving on the piano bench or moaning as he phrases something he likes adds to the joy of those repeated listens.


Makes its stranger still that Derek shows so little interest in his own recordings, Said often he didn't listen to them, wasn't interested. Helped run his own music label and didn't listen to the records. Strange wonderful guy. miss him a lot sometimes.

[Vihar]

If we could approach it in a scientific way, it would be nice to see the activity of the different brain parts of a free jazzer and a regular jazzer while they're playing, and also how strong those brain activities are compared to each other. Maybe even monitor musicians who play both styles fluently.

Something tells me there would be a difference for most guys. Maybe not Cecil Taylor though.

[Vihar]

Another interesting thing about genres like free jazz is, I don't think their counterparts exist in any folk music, or do they? I mean, most folk music is like regular jazz, i.e. stating a well recognizable form and then improvising over it.
Maybe I'm wrong there, after all it's all made by humans, so there's a strong possibility that free improvisation was "invented" way before it's become a genre. But then the question is, was/is the folk version popular and desirable to listen to by the audience?

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Vihar

Another interesting thing about genres like free jazz is, I don't think their counterparts exist in any folk music, or do they?

John Fahey

[cubistguitar]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

John Fahey

Nice! He is a freaky folkie for sure.

Lots of Indian/Asian music has improvisation and surprise at its core. North Indian is probably a little too structured to call free, but somehow Japanese music strikes me as having a free component and a need to express something mysterious.

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

John Fahey

Yeah, in his later career he did play something like that, but I wouldn't call that folk music anymore. It was John Fahey playing avant-garde music.

The Asian examples cubistguitar mentioned above come much closer, the Japanese one is a pretty good call, though I can still recognize form easily in them. They do treat time more freely though - sometimes.

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

The only "problem" with Japanese folk music is, it's pretty similar to Hungarian folk music, and I know it's got strict forms.

YouTube Video

And Bartók wasn't free jazz either.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Vihar

And Bartók wasn't free jazz either.

There are those that classify anything composed, orchestrated and performed in the Western conservatory tradition "classical".
There are those that classify anything intimidatingly incomprehensible as "free jazz".

Man walks into a bar during happy hour. There're some musicians in the corner plucking, scritching, glissing in the din. Man asks the bartender "Free jazz?" bartender says "no, Bartok."
Budda boom
David

[Vihar]

lol!

I get you. It's all music.

[zonedout245]

Originally Posted by Vihar

Sometimes it's hard to tell that kinda stuff and the emperor's new clothes apart.

Yes. It seems like people that play this kind of music are just pulling our legs. We consider ourselves "intellectuals" and rush to study everything we don't understand or find interesting and they just want to laugh at our naivety. When I referred to "style" or "kind", I mean the music (and art in general) that follows this free philosophy.

I think, however, that the people that "get" this kind of music are the ones that don't attempt to adhere any intellectual agenda to it, and simply enjoy it for the lovable spontaneity that it can be when one doesn't judge it too harshly.

I personally like this kind of music. I love Jazz music, but my main interest is in composition (macro and micro). I'm in love with sounds and different textures. I find inspiration in this style. It might not make me a better musician, but a more creative, imaginative, and well-judging individual, and I think that is rewarding.

Back to the quote: I think that the distinction gets very fuzzy once pieces like these get transcribed. I enjoy the spontaneity and emotive quality, but if one is reading it, how do I determine if the emotions are legitimate? Some of them is like Pollocks' paintings: the performance is of utmost importance. The result is just a consequence.

Originally Posted by Vihar

Another interesting thing about genres like free jazz is, I don't think their counterparts exist in any folk music, or do they? I mean, most folk music is like regular jazz, i.e. stating a well recognizable form and then improvising over it.
Maybe I'm wrong there, after all it's all made by humans, so there's a strong possibility that free improvisation was "invented" way before it's become a genre. But then the question is, was/is the folk version popular and desirable to listen to by the audience?

Right. I consider it to be like philosophy as opposed to a particular genre. Kind of like how MBASE is not Jazz, but people call it that because most MBASE sounds like Jazz, although it is not restricted to sounding like Jazz. There is a lot of freedom in Breakcore, a drumbreak-derived style of electronic music. I posted videos. Angel.

Here is some free-sounding music of varied styles that I like:

YouTube Video

Until the first minute or so.

YouTube Video

This one's pretty wild, but it's such a rush.

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by zonedout245

I love Jazz music, but my main interest is in composition (macro and micro). I'm in love with sounds and different textures.

I hear you on that one. It's like getting inspiration from nature sounds, wind, bird chirp, a vacuum cleaner, street traffic etc. - the whole world.

Originally Posted by zonedout245

This one's pretty wild, but it's such a rush.

I kinda like it. It's a pretty obvious form though, with the three chords and that steady groove. Basically a drum solo.

[cubistguitar]

This duet is a favorite pairing, i hear they drove one another nuts on the personal level. Very similar musicians even though different instruments.

YouTube Video

[cosmic gumbo]

I remember we had a beat up old washing machine that we named Derek Bailey, because we never knew what kind of sounds were going to come out of it when we used it. We thought it was going to die at any time, but it kept chugging, squealing, grinding, and sputtering for a couple more years. The day before it died, the noises had gotten to the point where we were going to rename it Peter Brotzmann....

[Vihar]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I remember we had a beat up old washing machine that we named Derek Bailey, because we never knew what kind of sounds were going to come out of it when we used it. We thought it was going to die at any time, but it kept chugging, squealing, grinding, and sputtering for a couple more years. The day before it died, the noises had gotten to the point where we were going to rename it Peter Brotzmann....

LMAO!

[franco6719]

These people are having fun making some kind of music, eh? They actually have listeners apparently who enjoy what they are doing. Probably many more listeners than even some of the best players on this forum. Is there a little jealousy going on there? Hmmm.... What's wrong with what they are doing? Is it immoral? Evil?

[cubistguitar]

One thing about the free improv scene that Derek sprang is their fearless approach to music and life in general. With Evan Parker and some backers, Derek Bailey began the first artist owned and operated recording label Incus. They ever only intended to release their own music and the music of like minded associates that needed an outlet for the improvised music. Incus has managed to survive all these years in that same capacity.

First artist owned label ever. Nice job, free improv. Thanks for thinking of the solution before we knew we were going to have the problem.

[Kman]

Is this thread still about Derek Bailey? I got around to listening to his Ballad album. Do people seriously listen to this? The music, (if want to to call it that), doesn't sound anything like the songs listed.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Kman

The music, (if want to to call it that), doesn't sound anything like the songs listed.

Depends on how well you know the songs...

[nakim55]

Listen to James Emery (you tube), he can play any Bud Powell solo, on guitar from memory, anything by MONK (tell you every voicing), has McLaughlin down cold in his 20's. And combined that with Bailey, to come up with his own style. Check him out, he is not playing any games. (master of classical & blues, also).