Monica - U Should've Known Better

[Vintage]

I have to play learn this song: YouTube - Monica - U Should Have Known Better (instrumental).
It sounds great. There's some distorted electric guitar solos and
an acoustic guitar finger picking chords.
The bassist at school helped me with roots. They're Eb/D#, Db/C#,
B, Ab/G#, and Gb/F#. With those notes, I figured out it's in the key of
E. The finger picking is hard to get since it's all single notes, not the whole
chord.
Any help would be much appreciated.

We have 3 guitarists. I'm going to play the solos and the other guitarists
can work out who plays chords and who finger picks.

No longer need the intro or solo. Intro attached.

[Banksia]

I'm not trying to be rude but, seriously, it's got 6 chords which repeat about 50 times! This is perfect for you to practise ear training. BTW, why are you so sure it's in E? Maybe it's in....mmmmm...I dunno...F# perhaps?

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

I'm not trying to be rude but, seriously, it's got 6 chords which repeat about 50 times! This is perfect for you to practise ear training. BTW, why are you so sure it's in E? Maybe it's in....mmmmm...I dunno...F# perhaps?

I can't find the chord when they are being finger picked note by note.
It would be easier for me if I heard the chords being strummed.

I've been trying to work on my ear. I got a little bit of the solo by
playing along, but there are some fast bits in there that aren't as
easy to pick out.

I wasn't to sure, just took the sharps (4 sharps) and tried using the
Circle of Fifths. You're probly right about the key. As far I know, it
could be in E, F#, B, or even C# major..

[Banksia]

Step 1: You know it has at least 4 sharps. Play it back and run some scales over it. Start with E major and see if you hit any bum notes. HINT: What if it had an F in it? (Technically, of course, this would be an E#) What key would that be?

Step 2: Run the next scale over it and repeat until you know the key.

Step 3: It's a Pop song, so it's probably going to have I, IV, V, and vi minor. When you've chosen your key, play around with these chords from that key. It doesn't matter if the track is fingerpicked. If you strum the correct chord it will sound right.

Step 4: Once you have the basic framework: Key and main 4 chords, fill in the rest with other chords from that key, if possible. If it changes key. which this song doesn't, you will hear it clearly by the time you reach this step. If so:

Ste 5: Pick the section where it changes key and repeat Steps 1-4 on that section.

Come On! You can do it. Make sure your axe is tuned to the track. Put the track on a recording programme so you can loop it over and over.

One last hint: When I listened I thought, "That is so f.... sharp!"

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

Step 3: It's a Pop song, so it's probably going to have I, IV, V, and vi minor. When you've chosen your key, play around with these chords from that key.
Come On! You can do it. Make sure your axe is tuned to the track. Put the track on a recording programme so you can loop it over and over.

Ok, it is in the Key of F#..
AH, forgot about chord patterns. There's F#maj, Bmaj, C#maj, Ebmin.
Apply chord progression and formulas in the key...and..

e--2---7---9----11---------------------------------
b--2---7---9----11---------------------------------
g--3---8---10---11----------------------------------
d--4---9---11---13----------------------------------
a--4---9---11---13----------------------------------
e--2---7---9----11---------------------------------


Can easily move the Bmaj, C#maj and the Ebmin down to the A string.



--2----4----6---------------------------------------
--4----6----7---------------------------------------
--4----6----8---------------------------------------
--4----6----8---------------------------------------
--2----4----6---------------------------------------
--x----x----x---------------------------------------



I tried slowing down the tempo of the solos in Audacity, but after 30%, it sounds like it affects the pitch.

[Banksia]

OK. The first thing we should do is call it Gb - no self-respecting jazz player plays in F#, they'd call it Gb. So, we will have to call B = Cb, because we already have a B note in the key of Gb: Bb
(Although it depends what the other players want to call it, though. 6#s or 6bs, take your pick.)


Here's how I hear it, with each chord for 1 bar:

Ebm - Db6 - Cb6 - Cb6

Abm - Bbm (or Db6) - Gbmaj7 - Gbma7

There are some variations you can use:

Ebm7 - Ebm/Db - Cbma7 - Cb/Bb
Abm - Bbm - Gbma7 - Gbma7 / Gb/F /

Try those out.

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

...

I always thought 6 sharps = 6 flats; same difference. If I called
it F#, anyone that has learned the Circle of 5ths knows F# = Gb.
I'm not trying to play it jazzy, this is in the "other guitar styles"
section. I have to learn it note for note and play it for the other
student that is singing the song. Everything has to be dead on.
The variation with the maj7ths sounds good, though. I haven't
worked on playing 6th chords much yet, so the variation is easier.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Vintage

I always thought 6 sharps = 6 flats; same difference. If I called
it F#, anyone that has learned the Circle of 5ths knows F# = Gb.
.

There's a hint of facetious-ness in Banksia's post, but he's right, from a jazz perspective...You could tell a sax player, "Okay, the tunes in F#" and watch the relief when you hand them their chart in Gb.

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

There's a hint of facetious-ness in Banksia's post, but he's right, from a jazz perspective...You could tell a sax player, "Okay, the tunes in F#" and watch the relief when you hand them their chart in Gb.

I have a hard time understanding the concept here.. would the saxophonist be less confident in playing the key of F# as to Gb? F# just sounds higher hence the sharp... Gb would be easier to play?

[mr. beaumont]

Be easier to read. Lots of sax players are used to reading flats instead of sharps. It's just a joke really, a good player will be able to play in any key sig...

Jazz tunes (yes, I know we're not talking about a jazz tune here) will often be written in "Flat" keys to aid in the reading--So you'll see Db instead of C# almost always. Because of this, guitar players who play a lot of jazz (talking about myself here!) are sometimes a lot better at reading in "flat" keys than "sharp."

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Be easier to read. Lots of sax players are used to reading flats instead of sharps. It's just a joke really, a good player will be able to play in any key sig...

Jazz tunes (yes, I know we're not talking about a jazz tune here) will often be written in "Flat" keys to aid in the reading--So you'll see Db instead of C# almost always. Because of this, guitar players who play a lot of jazz (talking about myself here!) are sometimes a lot better at reading in "flat" keys than "sharp."

Ohh, I see now. I find it harder to read in flat keys because I started on
on guitar then xylophone, so I just used sharps. Can't it just be like this?:
ascending = sharp, descending = flat.
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C B Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db C.
Chromatic scale in one octave, ascending then descending.

[mr. beaumont]

nope, correct and cleanest way is to stick to a key signature.

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

nope, correct and cleanest way is to stick to a key signature.

Ah, ok.

[M-ster]

Hmm, we threw a weird jazz-snob vibe into Vintage's thread ...

Given equal temperament, F# and Gb are equivalent.

Yes, brass instruments typically are more accustomed to keys with flats; but if we provide this tune to any of the common brass instrumentalists, it would no longer be in either F# or Gb (on their chart or sheet music), due to their instrument's transposition.

Can't it just be like this?:
ascending = sharp, descending = flat.

Sometimes this is a convenient way to make the printed score or chart easier to read for the instrumentalists. Probably more common for an ascending/descending line rather than for chord symbols, of course.

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Hmm, we threw a weird jazz-snob vibe into Vintage's thread ...

Given equal temperament, F# and Gb are equivalent.

Yes, brass instruments typically are more accustomed to keys with flats; but if we provide this tune to any of the common brass instrumentalists, it would no longer be in either F# or Gb (on their chart or sheet music), due to their instrument's transposition.

Sometimes this is a convenient way to make the printed score or chart easier to read for the instrumentalists. Probably more common for an ascending/descending line rather than for chord symbols, of course.

Seems that way...
I remember playing trombone years ago and I don't recall playing any sharps.
Every note was either natural or flat. Same with our bass guitar and tuba player.

Didn't realize that. Just thought it was simpler, in the way I understand
things.

[Banksia]

How did you go with working the song out? Have you filled in all the gaps?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Hmm, we threw a weird jazz-snob vibe into Vintage's thread ...

Given equal temperament, F# and Gb are equivalent.

Yes, brass instruments typically are more accustomed to keys with flats; but if we provide this tune to any of the common brass instrumentalists, it would no longer be in either F# or Gb (on their chart or sheet music), due to their instrument's transposition.



Sometimes this is a convenient way to make the printed score or chart easier to read for the instrumentalists. Probably more common for an ascending/descending line rather than for chord symbols, of course.

M-ster, I know mine (and I'm almost positive banksia's posts were light hearted. No snobbery here.


Lighten up, francis

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

How did you go with working the song out? Have you filled in all the gaps?

There are some variations you can use:

Ebm7 - Ebm/Db - Cbma7 - Cb/Bb
Abm - Bbm - Gbma7 - Gbma7 / Gb/F /

I haven't had time yet. I'm writing down the chords now.
On the older quote, I had some questions.
Is each line a variation, or is it all one?
the slashes in the chords show the chord with the bass note as
always, but what about the slashes at the end? Does that signify
the end, sort of like a repeat?

Also, is there a chord formula for the split chords? Or would it
just be major, with a different bass note?...

[Banksia]

The slashes in that last bar are just beats. Normally I would write a bar as Gb / / / but I didn't bother since all those other chords are for a full bar. The last bar goes:

Gbma7 / Gb/F /

You can see the bass lines where the slash chords are. Whoever does the finger-picking part should make sure they get those descending bass lines in.

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

The slashes in that last bar are just beats. Normally I would write a bar as Gb / / / but I didn't bother since all those other chords are for a full bar. The last bar goes:

Gbma7 / Gb/F /

You can see the bass lines where the slash chords are. Whoever does the finger-picking part should make sure they get those descending bass lines in.

Oh, ok. Got it.
We have 3 guitarists (including myself) and 1 bassist. I'm playing the solos while the other
plays the finger picking and another plays a light strum pattern or something. It'd be impossible
for them to play the picking part in unison.. The bassist can hit the slash bass notes, right?

[Banksia]

Yes the bass player already figured it out, judging by your original post.

As a tip for ear learning, pop songs generally don't have fancy bass lines so if you can work out the bass line, try those chords first:

If bass goes G F# E, try G major, F#min Emin.

Like I said earlier, with pop or rock songs, always try out your I, IV and V chords first. This will often give you 80% of the song.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

M-ster, I know mine (and I'm almost positive banksia's posts were light hearted. No snobbery here.

Lighten up, francis

Apparently, the light-heartedness wasn't so obvious that Vintage or I got it.

My apologies if the miscommunication was on my end.

[Banksia]

Originally Posted by M-ster

Apparently, the light-heartedness wasn't so obvious that Vintage or I got it.

My apologies if the miscommunication was on my end.

I'm not worried (about anything really)

It's just a pet beef of mine. I started playing in 1966. I lived in a small town with only one music shop with a dreadful range of sheet music, which I couldn't afford anyway. I learnt 70% of my playing by ear - I mean the old cliche of putting the 45s on 33rpm and the 33s on 16. Or sitting by the radio learning whatever came on.

With the Innertubez and tab sites and YouTube lessons, etc, etc, I don't think people spend enough time learning by ear. It's considered low-tech, or "primitive." This track was perfect for ear training - 1, 4, 5, 6minor, nice slow changes.

I was just trying to prod you Vintage, because I believe you need to train your ears. Quite honestly, I reached the point where I could listen to the Top 40 and learn the chords to every song before it finished - that's learning 40 songs in 3 hours with no tabs, no charts, no cost. I think that's the level you should aim for.

[M-ster]

My objection is not worthy of so much discussion. It's not a big deal. It's just very easy to miscommunicate in this medium, as we all know, and I interpretted that we were brow-beating Mr. Vintage a bit.

No slight to me, we're all good. Let's carry on ...

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

...

Yeah, that was before the internet.
I think I am capable of learning song by ear, it's simply the fact that our schedule is crammed. We have half of the songs down pat already, but he wants us to get the other 6 songs down within the next week.. I have 2 days to learn 3 songs,then 4 days to get the other 3. If that isn't stressful enough, I have percussion sheet music to work on (I've been struggling on playing snare since I've played a snare for less 2 months). Then there's the chores, homework in other classes, etc. Sounds like a sob story, I know, but I've never really had the chance to work on my ear.. until now. Listening to my teacher, I can figure out bits by just listening to the bass or even piano. It's not like you have to help me, because you don't. You take time out of your life to help me, and I appreciate that.

M-ster, I did pick up on what Banksia was saying. From the first reply, he said "don't mean to sound rude". Gotta face the facts... this site is "jazz guitar".
Everything's fine, though.

[mr. beaumont]

No prob m-ster, and vintage I apologize if you took it differently.

To be fair, my second post does say "it's just a joke"

[Banksia]

Vintage you should post a vid of the band performance. Personally I don't consider this a "pure jazz only" site and many many future jazz players come from High School and College bands.

This is what life was like before the Internet:

[Vintage]

Originally Posted by Banksia

Vintage you should post a vid of the band performance. Personally I don't consider this a "pure jazz only" site and many many future jazz players come from High School and College bands.

This is what life was like before the Internet:

I meant to say, most of the main contributors to this forum are jazz players.
Our band won't perform until March 23, we also haven't practiced the song..
yet.. Guessing you wanted to see the live version?

YouTube Video

I'm having a lot of trouble getting this song, too:

YouTube Video