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Yes, you're right. I remember now that trying to alternate pick with my thumb was my own ill conceived experiment several years ago.
Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero
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05-28-2014 01:05 AM
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Wes had a double jointed thumb and also developed a wart type of bump on it which allowed him to alternate with his thumb.
I'm for light anchoring without hindering the hand from moving across the strings.
I like Pat Metheny's right hand approach. It looks like he anchors his arm near the elbow with his wrist angled down like a classical guitarist. Probably wouldn't work for me though, I'm getting too old.
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Wes had a corn yeah and was double jointed yeah. Show us a video of him alternating down and up continuously with his thumb. I'd like to see that.
Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 05-31-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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It doesn't exist.
Wes was most all down thumbing for single notes...lots of slurs (oh no, I thought we were supposed to pick everything! )
He would play quick successive up and down thumb "strums" when soloing in chords or octaves.
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How did Charlie Christian pick? Successive down strokes?
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Barney Kessel said yeah, almost all downstrokes. Ill have to take his word for it
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Could be an insight. Looks like he may have swept back with an upstroke. Video is out of sync on my end of the internet. How does it look to "others" on their end of the internet? For internet purposes of course. LOL. But will admit I did "play"with that drummer above in N.Y.C. Jimmy Lovelace. And, if ever there was bad ass, he was a bad ass. Just so we're clear, when I say " Barney Kessel usually told the truth "I mean in my 48 years of playing the guitar that's was my experience in "reading" and "talkin'" about him with others. I never met the guy and the internet wasn't around when I was coming up. Just to be clear. Yeah back to the thread. Well, Wes in anchored kind of like the way Charlie Christian was. Check it out at 55:56. Good shot. I think I'm seeing it again. What Patrick is alluding to. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 05-31-2014 at 09:16 PM.
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This just fell out of the sky and onto my Facebook. It's a close up of Mike Stern's right hand, shown at full, half and quarter speed.
And I'll cast a vote for Wes' technique being all downstrokes and slurs, aside from occasional 'flourishes' on octaves and chords. I think the reason people struggle with trying to emulate his right hand is they don't take in to account his left. Once you get his fingerings down, the lines kind of play themselves.
The pianist in the Wes video, Harold Mabern, is far and away the best scat singer I ever heard. He sat in on the microphone on one of my gigs once, because there was no piano in the room but he 'still wanted to get a piece of it....'
Code Archive: Mike Stern | Troy Grady ? Guitarist
PK
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Here is Barney K's interview was Jas Orbect. The figure given here (for Charlie's picking) is 95 % downstrokes. The link is below but here is an excerpt which covers 3 things of interest: 1) Barney's idea of what technique is, 2) how Charlie picked, and 3) how Charlie held his pick.. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Just so were clear, when I say "Barney Kessel said" I mean "I read somewhere that sebody read an interview where Barney said" which I suppose should be assumed on the internet
From observation, what can you say about Charlie Christian’s technique?
Well, when I think of technique, really I think of control. I don’t think of technique in the same way that a lot of people do, so I don’t really think of technique as being only speed or dexterity. I think that if you have certain things that you want to say and you’re able to say them, then you have the technique that you need. The only time you would be at a loss, technically, is if you needed to do something and couldn’t do it. You know what it’s like, really? It’s like how rich are you or how poor are you that when you want a meal or to buy a new suit or buy a new car or take a trip to Europe, that there’s always enough money to do it – not a lot more than that and not a lot less. So are you really poor or wealthy? It’s kind of that way with technique: If you can do what you need to do, then you’ve got enough technique. He certainly did not have the kind of technique that people have today, or even a lot of people during that day, because he didn’t concentrate on that. It wasn’t a big thing. Another thing is he played almost exclusively – probably 95% – downstrokes.
Did he use a pick?
Yes.
How did he hold it?
He held it in his thumb and first finger of his right hand, very tightly, and he rested his second, third, and fourth fingers very firmly – I mean, not in a relaxed way, but very, very, very tensely – on the pickguard. They were anchored there. It wasn’t like a light anchor. It’s not like some guitar players you see, where they’re kind of rubbing maybe just their little pinkie finger against it. Have you seen guys do that?
Sure.
Yeah. He had them firmly entrenched on that pickguard, almost like there was no break in the finger joint. It was like a straight, solid, long finger that was right on there, and he played with the first finger and the thumb holding the pick. And the pick was a very stiff pick, and it was a triangular pick.
A big triangle or a smaller one?
A big one.
Did he use all of the fingers of his left hand?
He almost exclusively did not use the fourth finger. Almost not ever – almost.
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Gee, could I be wrong about the alternate picking with Wes? I got this from an interview with Benson on Wes, but I don't remember if it was in an old guitarplayer mag issue or on the internet. The article was several guitarists talking about Wes. Now I'll have to find the issue to make sure of exactly what Benson said.
In the meantime, this is from a GP article: "Over time, Montgomery reportedly developed a hardened corn that could be used to put a “point” on notes and catch the string on upstrokes."
10 Things You Gotta Do to Play Like Wes Montgomery | GuitarPlayer
Charlie Christian definitely play all down strokes. I read that in Guitar Player too and it was from an interview with Charlie that GP got a hold of. Christian's teacher told him to play all downstokes so all notes would have the same attack. OK, now I guess someone will want a video for proof LOL.
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If you transcribe, you'll see most of that stuff is playable with downstrokes and slurs. I won't say all, because I haven't transcribed Wes' whole catalogue.
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Bobby lol yourself. This a discussion not a cutting session. Its standard fare that Wes used down strokes primarily. I asked to see a video and Patrick produced one. I remember the GP article you brought up. I think you are correct in what GB said. No need rub people's face in it.
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If you can yell what Wes is actually doing with his picking hand in that video you have much better ears and eyes than I.
Until I'm that sharp, I'll stick with what I've sat down and figured out myself. At least I can say for certain on that.
But, in the end....minutiae!
Who gives a hoot? Pick the way your technique allows you to play a line correctly with good feel. Thick pick, skinny pick, fat strings, skinny strimgs, thumb, Bob Conti's severed arm--whatever!
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These three guys got game! Russell Malone, Benny Greene and Christian McBride. The first two or three minutes and again at around 12 minutes into it shows some great close-ups of Malone's picking at hyper speed. A whole lot of alt picking going on there . . some alt and no slurs that I can see. But, some really great technique and in the pocket groove by three great players.
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Check out Jody Fisher's interview with Benson on the Workshop Live! series. Benson breaks down how to use the thumb like Wes.
He does, indeed, play upstrokes on some of the faster passages, and I think that Wes did, too. I don't have a corn on my thumb, and I can pretty easily do alt-picking on a single string with my thumb up into the higher tempos. I can't cross strings, or start with an upstroke, but it's pretty easy to just bounce back through the string after a downstroke.
Also, I think the 95% downstrokes anecdote about Christian might be a bit of an overstatement. I get that he was probably doing the gypsy thing, where every string change is on a downstroke. But, go play the head to Seven Come Eleven at tempo without upstrokes. It seems completely impossible to me.
Having learned a bunch of his solos, I think Christian was probably using downstrokes as often as he possibly could, just like the gypsy guys. I think Wes is doing the same thing (excepting the chord solo and octave stuff, of course).
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I'm still convinced Charlie is not playing those C's that alternate with those Eb's...I can't hear the guitar play those notes. Maybe I'm wrong.
As for the licks I've copped from Charlie, they're all playable with downstrokes...not that I would play them that way myself...
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I'll have to go listen to the track again, but I'm pretty sure he's playing it. He plays some really speedy triplets on another cut off of "Genius of the Electric Guitar" that seem impossible with downstrokes, as well. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I just can't see it. Maybe he just had freakishly fast downstrokes, but his style is so heavily articulated that he's picking almost every note. Like that opening lick over the first dominant of the bridge of Seven Come Eleven where he slides up to the 3, then plays a rapid passage. My hands can't do that without mixing in upstrokes...no way.
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Those triplets om Grand Slam? Pulloffs, I think.
As for the bridge on Seven, well, 95% isn't 100%
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And yes, He does not, indeed. Guitar plays 2 notes only, piano plays the rest. That's how I got it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Really like Chris Flory here. Man. Dynamite!
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I find it incredulous that Tuck Andress would be a source for right hand plectrum technique when his main technique is finger style..anchoring has advantages in regards to dampening sympathetic vibrations especially playing at higher volumes. Floating technique is probably more correct in terms of mechanics. But let us not forget Johnny Smith who had a ridiculous right hand. He played from the elbow and not rotary forearm.So go figure…just find something that works well for you and stay with it whatever it is and just play.
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Interesting explanation about Johnny Smith playing from the elbow. How does that work? Not rotary forearm? What's that mean?
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Johnny Smith - What Are You Doing The Rest Of…:
Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 09-10-2014 at 01:40 PM.
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As a first approximation, Johnny Smith's elbow moves his hand between strings and his wrist picks on single strings.
He fluently synthesizes the two techniques.Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 09-11-2014 at 05:59 AM.
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Don't shoot me, but if you aren't aware of "Cracking the Code" it might be worth a look. The entire website is about analyzing the right hand speed picking techniques of very, very fast players. Mostly metal but here's Mike Stern with close ups and slow motion of his right hand.
Check out Season 2 for in-depth analysis of picking mechanics (Season 1 is definitely skippable—I watched the whole thing in a single binge).
Using a more angled pick and downward pick-slanting (as Troy calls it in CtC) I was able, thus far, to play the first 3 Conti Precision Technique exercises at 170bpm—which is insanely fast for me and using a Fred Kelly Fat Pick.
YMMV.
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