New to jazz and need advice

[squeally dan]

Im not new to guitar but am newer to jazz. What's a good book, system, DVD or something I could use. I feel I can do it on my own but I need some type of structure.

[ruiner54]

I am new as well and my teacher told me to get the Real Book by Hal Leonard which is full of Jazz standards...difficulty ranges from easy (Autumn Leaves) to crazy (Giant Steps). He also recommended I get "The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine. These were things he used for his jazz classes in university. Hope that helps....

[feralkid]

I would recommend the complete jazz guitar method series of books by jody fisher, they are well written, easy to understand and take you through most of the things you need to know. comes with a cd and all exercises are written in tab as well as standard notation.

[pierre richard]

don't forget Mickey Bakers books....Vol I & II

bert ligons site...jamie aebersolds site...bon kellers jazz site...

and this site has many lessons also...

time on the instrument...pierre

[stuartmack]

Micky Baker definitely

[Stevebol]

The Real Book. There are several volumes but the first will keep you busy. Learn tunes-listen to tunes. Something to address chords- Mickey Baker gets high marks from most people though I don't have it.
There are many method books out there but get the essential learning tools first.
Jimmy Bruno has a nice vid called No Nonsense Guitar. It will help you 'think' jazz. He has a great break-down of why the major scale practiced in several different positions goes a long way.

[Earl]

After you learn a few tunes with just the basic changes...take one at a time and see what you can come up with. This is called reharmonization.
George Van Eps used to do this. He wanted to 'see what's in there".
There are books on this subject as well. Fascinating listening when you
can maintain the original melody with a whole new set of changes.

[ronjazz]

Get a teacher as soon as you can. it will take you longer to undo the screwups than if you take just one or two lessons with a good player. I believe the Jimmy Bruno, as well as other, site may have a video feature that lets you send him a vid, that would be way better then no teacher at all. I don't have a teaching practice any more, although I did for years, but I have a few students whop come by when they're ready for another session, whether it is in a week or a month or longer. I have students who come by every 4 or 5 years. it's really hard to do on your own, although if you can play with decent players regularly, that may be helpful.

Jazz is a very high art form, very high. It's hard.

[brwnhornet59]

Having a teacher in front of you that has experience in Jazz and would tailor the lessons around your needs would be best. If you can't find a good teacher locally there is always skype.

Skype lessons are easy to come by as well. There are several excellent teachers that frequent this site that give them. They are very reasonably priced as well and would give you the one on one you need, which is very beneficial.

Matt Warnock, Sylvain Courtney, Dave Kain and Jake Reichbart all give skype lessons and are all great teachers/players and people. They all belong to this forum. Seek them out if you feel so inclined.

[aniss1001]

My introduction to Jazz theory was Mark Levines book "The Jazz Theory Book". I learned a lot from it but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. It has received a lot of critique. Not least on this forum. I'd rather recommend Bert Ligons books.

Actually I think I'd recommend a book written by a member of this forum: JonniPac. I don't have it myself because I currently have no means of buying stuff online. And besides I allready have a too long todo / practice list (mainly focusing on transcribing and arpeggios these days). But I have read the parts of it that he posted in different threads around here. Good stuff. And written especially for GUITARISTS.

Besides that I would also recommend the Joe Pass video / booklet called "Jazz lines".

But I guess most of all I'd recommend start learning tunes, doing ear training (lot's of software around for this), practicing arpeggios and transcribing ASAP. Get some software like Transcribe! and start with something simple.

And off course there is no substitute for a good teacher but these days there are lot's of good free lessons available on the internet.

[Distort]

I humbly submit as my 1st posting here that a weekend hobbiest type guitar player does not need to be force fed every scale, every note, arpeggio, chord inversion, etc...

unfortunately, the stock response on forum and by jazz instructors is "oh, you have to have instant recall and know every scale, every note, blah blah blah..." or you can't play jazz guitar.

when the student has no intention of playing professionally and their plans include doing an occasional open mic with friends or spending thei weekend entertaining their spouse or family pet,..... spending hours learning scales, arpeggios, chord inversions, etc.... can be an absolute waste of time and their valuable money.

DAVE

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by Distort

I humbly submit as my 1st posting here that a weekend hobbiest type guitar player does not need to be force fed every scale, every note, arpeggio, chord inversion, etc...

unfortunately, the stock response on forum and by jazz instructors is "oh, you have to have instant recall and know every scale, every note, blah blah blah..." or you can't play jazz guitar.

when the student has no intention of playing professionally and their plans include doing an occasional open mic with friends or spending thei weekend entertaining their spouse or family pet,..... spending hours learning scales, arpeggios, chord inversions, etc.... can be an absolute waste of time and their valuable money.

DAVE

welcome, dave...

...spend a little time browsing this amazing site, and you will find that is in no wise the predominant thinking here...

regards

[mr. beaumont]

Agreed.

But you better know that fretboard, and how to build chords, not just memorize shapes.

I think the fundamentals of bop style jazz playing can be learned in a few months. And then, you know, take the next 50 years or so and master them

[Distort]

WHY is it important to know how to build a chord?

if you can play any chord in 3-4 positions on the fretboard.

Even if it the knowledge is by knowing chord shapes, there should be no need to "know how to build a chord" anywhere on the fretboard.

Having the ability to build a chord on the fly is useless, unless of course you plan on playing in a group or going professional.

imho-- it always seems to comes back to "you must know XYZ or you can't play jazz guitar.... which is bull... again IMHO

Dave

[ronjazz]

That's cool, Dave, but you'll never really be a jazz guitar player, you'll be a hobbyist with a lot of holes in your knowledge, and a forever wannabe.

Even Johnny Smith didn't consider himself a jazz guitarist, and there was hardly anyone in jazz guitar history who knew more scales, arpeggios and theory than he, but he understood that the real jazzer lives and breathes it.

After all, jazz guitarists and jazz teachers are trying to master one of the most difficult art forms known to humans.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Distort

WHY is it important to know how to build a chord?

if you can play any chord in 3-4 positions on the fretboard.

Even if it the knowledge is by knowing chord shapes, there should be no need to "know how to build a chord" anywhere on the fretboard.


Dave

Trust me, it's the single most liberating thing I've ever learned for guitar playing.

A little bit of legwork...a month or so...and you'll never see a song again that throws you a "chord curveball." Every time the chord in a tune changes the fretboard will light up with possibilities for melodic choices when soloing.

I do think theres some stuff you need to know to play jazz...but I also think it's a very small amount of stuff to master. And it's all stuff you can apply instantly-- no rote learning.

May I ask why you're adverse to a little time in the shed? Jazz is a heavy undertaking. Why make it tougher on yourself?

[Distort]

Is there anything wrong with being a hobbiest guitar player?

Holes in knowledge can be filled as needed. They shouldn't be considered
a pre-requisite to playing jazz.

[bako]

What is needed to learn depends on your goals. If chords in 3 or 4 positions gets the job done as only you can define for yourself, then that's great.
We, starting with myself, tend to respond to questions as if we are all walking the same path and that what was meaningful for me will hold equal value for others.
That is a myth, but sharing our experience is what we do. Operating on a professional level does require much but there is plenty of possibility to create great music within a smaller vocabulary and less theoretical underpinning. I think you understand this but many of us forget it.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Distort

Is there anything wrong with being a hobbiest guitar player?

Holes in knowledge can be filled as needed. They shouldn't be considered
a pre-requisite to playing jazz.

Nothing wrong with being a hobby player at all.

I guess I find the journey just as fun as the destination--I like the legwork because it allows me to get the stuff I hear in my head out more easily.

So where are you at with jazz now? When you come across a gap, what's your attack plan?

[Distort]

I've been playing guitar for more than 40 years in the folk, blues rock realm, but for the past 2 years, I been taking jazz specific lessons.

During th past 2 years, I've learned jazz chord shapes and applied my blues caged chord training to figure them out in more positions.

I've learned a few the most often used (2-3) scales in 5 modes / positions... I learned them so that I could solo when the key changed within a song & popularly used chord arpeggios were also learned to help in the soloing process.

So, I am not adverse to learning theory at all...

Unless the student is an absolute beginner, theory training in jazz should come when the student asks "WHY or HOW".

It should not be a pre-requisite.

I'm come across too many highly respected instructors that won't even teach a standard jazz song until the student has instant recall of the notes in every scale in all the modes & can recoginize a tri-tone sound, etc....

All of them are wonderful things to learn, but they are not needed to be able to play Autumn Leaves and go home and impress their parents / spouse.

Dave

[mr. beaumont]

Are those instructors jazz players, though?

I can't imagine a jazz teacher worth a damn that wouldn't have you listening to as much jazz as possible and learning tunes right off the bat. Anyone who's gone through the process of being a jazz beginner has to know that the only way to learn is in context.

I think the knowledge bits I mentioned are extremely important, but they can be taught while learning to make music as well.

Anyone who starts off jazz by making you learn a bunch of scales simply can't know much about jazz or the playing of it, certainly not the learning of it.

[yaclaus]

Being a hobbyist doesn´t resonate with playing jazz. It´s highly demanding (and rewarding). Even though rock and other styles can be as demanding I think it´s simpler to be a hobbyist in that vein.

[Distort]

I beg to again disagree.

Being a professional level jazz player is probably highly demanding.

There are no demands on being an amateur / hobbiest level jazz guitar player.

I'm not impressed with the use of 100 different chords in one song.

I'm impressed by simplicity and the ability to convene a tune.

[ronjazz]

Well, I can't help but think that you're exaggerating a bit, Distort. I've yet to meet any of these teachers you cite, and I've been in the biz for over 4 decades. In any event, all of my students learn basic harmonic theory, so they won't sound like idiots when communicating with other musicians. It also opens up their imaginations to the possibilities of music besides guitar playing, such as songwriting, arranging and teaching. The most unfortunate aspect of your particular approach is that it keeps guitarists on the "ignorant" end of the musical world, and sets a very bad example. Learning the language of music is neither a waste of time nor unnecessary to become a well-rounded, accomplished musician, even if it's a weekend hobby. And no professional teacher is about to let the student dictate the pace or terms of the learning, by the way. It's much easier and more sensible to start the teaching of basic theory at the first lesson than to try to go back to the beginning after someone's been playing for months or years. In fact, doing it from the beginning is the opposite of "force-feeding", it is actually nurturing growth in a natural, unforced way.

By the way, the demands on a hobbyist/weekend jazz guitar player will be felt most by the listener, not the player. If you are out to "impress", then you may be lacking an understanding of what jazz, or any art music, is about, which is communicating beauty on an emotional level. Most of the greats play fewer and fewer notes as they age and gain wisdom, the appreciation of space and shape in music, and become comfortable in their own modes of expression, such as Jim Hall, who, to my knowledge, has never in his 60-year career tried to impress anybody.

[Distort]

At a rate of $45 to $60 per hourly lesson, it the students
right to make demands on the progression & content
of lessons.

I'll gladly take my money to the teacher that will work to my plan.

Dave

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Distort

WHY is it important to know how to build a chord?

if you can play any chord in 3-4 positions on the fretboard.

Even if it the knowledge is by knowing chord shapes, there should be no need to "know how to build a chord" anywhere on the fretboard.

Having the ability to build a chord on the fly is useless, unless of course you plan on playing in a group or going professional.
Dave

I think that you should be pursuing both playing and theory. Playing is always important, but having at least a basic foundation in chord scale theory is quite important as well, if you want to play jazz. You do not need to delve to deep to get an understanding of intervallic relationships, how to build chords and modes and their relationship to what you are playing. Having a map and being able to understand how and why you got where you are in a tune, is the key to understanding what you are playing.


Knowledge is power. Willful ignorance is just plain silly, even for a hobbyist. Jazz does not lend itself to the rules of pop or rock, if it is to sound like jazz. It does not take much digging to find basic information of intervallic relationships, and how those relationships apply towards building chords and scales.

[ronjazz]

Dave, you're entirely free to throw your money away, but only the bad teacher will accept your money on your terms.

I can safely assume that I'll never hear your best-selling jazz CD.

[Distort]

at my ripe age of 57, any thoughts of my recording an album or CD are long since past. My days of playing in groups are also a memory.

I play for the enjoyment of playing now, which consists of playing at home after work or the occassional open mic...

none of the open mic folks seem to be bothered by my playing...

lets agree to disagree....

or as my dad used to say "opinions are like a**holes, yours stinks just as badly as mine does."


Dave

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Distort

I play for the enjoyment of playing now, which consists of playing at home after work or the occassional open mic...

none of the open mic folks seem to be bothered by my playing...

lets agree to disagree....

or as my dad used to say "opinions are like a**holes, yours stinks just as badly as mine does."


Dave

Interesting. I notice that this is your 11th post since you joined our forum a week ago.

You make statements and ask questions, then systematically dismiss our replies with a willful attitude, and then insult us with a generalization about opinions being like @ssholes. Though I do agree with you fathers sage advise, I pose to you the question as to why you are here? I only see one consistent opinion that fits into your fathers assessment, and it is not from any one veteran here. Perhaps you should step back and reevaluate your position, either as to you presence here or what you are seemingly arguing about.

If you want to pursue your present course with your studies, that is fine by me. Please keep your questions focused on specific topics that are beneficial to us all. You know, like what is a C7#11 and why would I use that chord? Or perhaps, does anyone know the changes to Billies Bounce?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Distort

At a rate of $45 to $60 per hourly lesson, it the students
right to make demands on the progression & content
of lessons.

I'll gladly take my money to the teacher that will work to my plan.

Dave

What is that plan, though?