Melodic "Jazz" Minor Basics (Modes and Chords)

[JonnyPac]

Greetings y'all,

I'm trowing a few pages of my book up here to add my 2 cents on the Melodic Minor Scale used in jazz and other contemporary (pop) genres. Beware: it is based on CST and has a few debatable Levine-isms in it, etc. I do not want to get a huge flaming debate going here, I want to share what works for me and my students with hopes that it will help others along their paths.

Feel free to add additional information, examples, charts, videos, etc, but keep it constructive. I will delete the entire except if I get harassed personally. (BTW sorry I posted this in the wrong forum- I mean to post it in the Getting Started one!)

Cheers,

Jonathan Pac Cantin
All image pages copyright 2012 (print use for private study only)

[JonnyPac]

Note that all of the information above is intended for "inside" playing.

YouTube Video

[M-ster]

John Stowell has some interesting videos on melodic minor and its applications that I just ran into today, via Sylvain's videos. Nothing happens for the first 1:15, but bear with him.

YouTube Video

There are more in this series, too!

[AmundLauritzen]

Nothing wrong with CST in itself. It can be a great tool. It's how one approaches it that is critical to its effectiveness. If approached wrong, it can confuse and demotivate people.

A lot of people think music theory is music truth. Not so.
The theory can give guidelines, a starting point to train the ear. From there on it's up to the player to be creative and to break the rules and sound good. And that can only be done through trial and error.

Great post, Jonny. Thanks for sharing.

[richard vandyne]

i am not the brightest kid on the block so here is dumb question. i noticed when you were giving examples of modes that there is no dorian or ionian mode. any particular reason for that????????????????????

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by richard vandyne

i am not the brightest kid on the block so here is dumb question. i noticed when you were giving examples of modes that there is no dorian or ionian mode. any particular reason for that????????????????????

Ionian and Dorian are modes of the MAJOR scale (respectively mode 1 and 2). The modes mentioned here are the modes of MELODIC MINOR. Something completely different.

It's worth mentioning that these modes do not have standarsized names like the modes of the major scale. For instance the 2nd mode here mentioned as Phrygian natural 6th could also be called Dorian b2.

I recommend sitting down and exploring the intervalic combinations of each mode (both major scale and melodic minor modes) and it will all start to make sense...

[aniss1001]

Ah and thanks for sharing Jonni. Looks interesting as usual. Hope you wont have to delete it. Haven't seen much harrasment on this forum though?! I did notice that people get quite passionate when it comes to discussing theory (or perhaps just theory according to LEVINE). But perhaps you're refferring to something else entirely... Anyway thanks again. I personally really do apreciate it

[Dark Star]

This stuff is extremely applicable to what I have been studying, but it all seems like a lot to digest.

[richard vandyne]

jonny thanks foir the reply obviously i did not know that about minor scales.i have been studying major scales for as while and haven,t gotten around to the minor side. thanks again---always enjoy your contributions - keep it up

[JonnyPac]

Thanks for the nice feedback and additional info/comments. I'm glad some of you dig it. Enjoy!

[Sailor]

Great stuff as always Jonny.

Tx, Sailor

[JonnyPac]

Thanks!

[wizard3739]

well done Jonnypac! IMHO, this is an excellent view of Melodic Minor value and harmonic analysis for jazz improv. I don't have your book yet but I have added it to my "must have" list for jazz guitar study.

wiz

[Dazz]

Thanks for that Johnny!!!

Even if players do not want to buy into the whole thing, there are some great and very hip/modern sounds in those modes and some of it is quite easy to apply. I say this as a relative novice who has just scratched the surface.

[JonnyPac]

Glad you guys are enjoying the chapter! Thanks for checking it out.

[JonnyPac]

Fixed a typo!

[Bigmagic]

Amazing how technical things seem when we try to discuss theory. The important points are Melodic minor is a major scale with a flatted 3rd and where to use it such as melodic minor a half step up from a altered 7th chord.(Stowell has a lot of other uses in his fine book) This is why I don't think in terms of modes or minor scales. My approach is to use major scales and adjust the notes accordingly to create minor or extend chord lines. The exception being the diminished scale. I think it frees my mind to play rather than think what mode or scale do I use. Keeps the theory from clogging up my limited faculties.

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by Bigmagic

Amazing how technical things seem when we try to discuss theory. The important points are Melodic minor is a major scale with a flatted 3rd and where to use it such as melodic minor a half step up from a altered 7th chord.(Stowell has a lot of other uses in his fine book) This is why I don't think in terms of modes or minor scales. My approach is to use major scales and adjust the notes accordingly to create minor or extend chord lines. The exception being the diminished scale. I think it frees my mind to play rather than think what mode or scale do I use. Keeps the theory from clogging up my limited faculties.

Totally agree with you and the altered dominant, dim/whole tone scale, super locrian mode or what ever, it means all the same....

[JonnyPac]

Sounds like you're missing out of a few other good colorful sounds found within the MM system, IMHO. I'd say give it a though exploitation, listen to actual recordings of the modal chords in use (Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie, Miles, etc), and then decide to write them off. I use all of the modes frequently with the exception of the 2nd one at this point, though I hear it's value. ...You really can't pass up Lydian Dominant!

This is an expert from a theory book, not a "play jazz overnight" or method book. Therefore an over-the-top wordy explanation and pedantic listing of subsets comes with the territory. Please see it for what it is.

[Bigmagic]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Sounds like you're missing out of a few other good colorful sounds found within the MM system, IMHO. I'd say give it a though exploitation, listen to actual recordings of the modal chords in use (Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie, Miles, etc), and then decide to write them off.

I use all of the modes frequently with the exception of the 2nd one at this point, though I hear it's value. ...You really can't pass up Lydian Dominant!

This is an expert from a theory book, not a "play jazz overnight" or method book. Therefore an over-the-top wordy explanation and pedantic listing of subsets comes with the territory. Please see it for what it is.

Jonny(I love your stuff by the way) I am not writing it off. I have Stowell's book and I study the stuff but I can't think of all those things when I play. I use Melodic Minor all the time(well I try to use it some lol) I just find it easier to think of it as a major scale with a flatted third. I have listened to interviews with a lot of jazz musicians and a lot of them keep things simple in their approach. I'm just learning jazz(for the last 10 years) after playing Rock,Blues and Country my whole life. The first thing I did was buy one of Aebersolds theory books on Major/Minor with the play along CDs. Being self taught absorbing all that theory both helped my playing and caused frustration. My summation to Music Theory is you can play any note any time you want if it works.(sounds like you have to use your ears) I still go back to the Stowell book and I find your excerpt interesting and worthy of study. I am not dissing theory there is no substitute for knowledge but everyone has to find an approach that works for them and for me I find that thinking in terms of 3rds, 7ths, 9ths and 13th natural or altered as they relate to the major scale easier. I use modes a lot as I'm sure a lot of us do but for me my fretboard approach is in terms of the major scale it derives from. I don't mean to dumb down the discussion, I think all of these things should be studied and practiced.

I always get tripped up with Melodic Minor when you derive chords from it and I would love to see you discuss this in more detail.Thanks.

By the way Jonny, do you think in terms of theory when your on the bandstand or let your practice guide your ears?

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Sounds like you're missing out of a few other good colorful sounds found within the MM system, IMHO. I'd say give it a though exploitation, listen to actual recordings of the modal chords in use (Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie, Miles, etc), and then decide to write them off. I use all of the modes frequently with the exception of the 2nd one at this point, though I hear it's value. ...You really can't pass up Lydian Dominant!

This is an expert from a theory book, not a "play jazz overnight" or method book. Therefore an over-the-top wordy explanation and pedantic listing of subsets comes with the territory. Please see it for what it is.

No doubt of your knowledge of this stuff Jonny but I'm just talking about the use of the MM as a substition of a V7 in a II-V7-I progression.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Sounds like you're missing out of a few other good colorful sounds found within the MM system, IMHO. I'd say give it a though exploitation, listen to actual recordings of the modal chords in use (Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie, Miles, etc), and then decide to write them off. I use all of the modes frequently with the exception of the 2nd one at this point, though I hear it's value. ...You really can't pass up Lydian Dominant!

I am with you Jonny. I dig using Dorian b13 or Myxo suss4 b2#2 , as Matt calls it now, over a Domb9 with an unaltered 5th.

I find that it does not matter how one simplifies what they are applying, as long as it is consistent. I used to look at everything in only a major relationship. But once you realize that major and minor are one in the same, things open up.

So I look at two templates now. Still very simple and easy. I still relate to the major scale as a template but I look at all minor scales from a Dorian template. I did this because Dorian is the most often unaltered minor scale that I play in jazz.


As for 4 note chord scales in MM, -M7, -7, M7#5, Dom7, Dom7, -7b5, -7b5. Now what you do with the altered upper extension not being voiced, is what needs to be addressed.
That 1 note makes a big difference.

There are many ways to apply MM against a V7 chord. The most common is alt. But by no means should it always be a first choice.

[JonnyPac]

Great points, BH. I agree all the way. Templates are great; hell, a basic pentatonic is a good starting point! And that one note makes a HUGE difference for sure.

@ Bill an Frank, using the idea of a single tonic scale and then adding accidentals and such to fit the underlying chords (without thinking of completely changing scale, arp, or key) is elegant in theory, but not in practice, IMHO. It would take ears that recognize harmonic devices at work in the tune, and therefore would require a deeper less-intuitive knowledge of jazz music. There are some flawed assumptions I can point out... 1. That there is in fact one tonic key that you can generalize from (not a shifting modal framework, a la Maiden Voyage or Dolphin Dance) and; 2. if there is a key center, there are borrowed and back-cycled chords in typical jazz progressions that include more alterations than not (the bridge to rhythm changes uses back-cycling, etc). There are no shortcuts and theory is a tool along the path.

[Bigmagic]

Victor Wooten has stated many times that theory is great and all but if you miss a note you are never more than a half step away from a "right note". IN his video he demonstrates by playing all the "wrong" notes and still sounds great. I doubt a lot of the creators of this music had the information available to disect the music the way we do now. Again continue with the discussion I follow with interest educate me but don't tell me there is only one path. I am a subscriber to Jonny's youtube channel and I study theory till my head hurts. I subscribe to Reg's channel as well and they both have been helpful. Honestly listening to them has been as rewarding as the theory discussed. Please continue teach me.

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

@ Bill an Frank, using the idea of a single tonic scale and then adding accidentals and such to fit the underlying chords (without thinking of completely changing scale, arp, or key) is elegant in theory, but not in practice, IMHO. It would take ears that recognize harmonic devices at work in the tune, and therefore would require a deeper less-intuitive knowledge of jazz music. There are some flawed assumptions I can point out... 1. That there is in fact one tonic key that you can generalize from (not a shifting modal framework, a la Maiden Voyage or Dolphin Dance) and; 2. if there is a key center, there are borrowed and back-cycled chords in typical jazz progressions that include more alterations than not (the bridge to rhythm changes uses back-cycling, etc). There are no shortcuts and theory is a tool along the path.

It's time to order "Chord-Scale Theory and Linear Harmony for Guitar" now, thanks Jonny.

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

As for 4 note chord scales in MM, -M7, -7, M7#5, Dom7, Dom7, -7b5, -7b5. Now what you do with the altered upper extension not being voiced, is what needs to be addressed.
That 1 note makes a big difference.

Britt, can you give an explanation more in depth of this? Thanks!

[brwnhornet59]

As for 4 note chord scales in MM, -M7, -7, M7#5, Dom7, Dom7, -7b5, -7b5. Now what you do with the altered upper extension not being voiced, is what needs to be addressed.
That 1 note makes a big difference.

Sure, it was mentioned earlier that there was some confusion with playing chord scales and arps from MM. So this is the formula for 1-7 chord scales. Lets use C MM as our subject. The first chord is:

C-M7 - 1 b3 5 7 - The altered note "B", is in this chord making it a major 7. 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7


D-7 - 1 b3 5 b7 - The B makes this chord have a natural 6, (13), so it is Dorian with a b2, (Eb). 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7


EbM7#5 (b13) - 1 3 #5 7 - The B is in this chord making it a #5, Or Lydian Augmented. 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7


F7 - 1 3 5 b7 - The B in this chord gives you a #4 (#11), so it is Lydian Dom. 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7


G7 - 1 3 5 b7 - The B in this chord is the 3rd, making it Major. This chord also has a b6 (b13) Eb. 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7


A-7b5 - 1 b3 b5 b7 - The B in this chord gives it a natural 2nd. Locrain 9. 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7


B-7b5 - 1 b3 b5 b7; 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7.

Notice how the b4 is also the major 3rd? That is how the altered scale gets it's major sound. So you usually see it written like this. B7 b9 #9 b5 #5. All of the alterations are present in this scale.

You look at this Scale as Locrain b4 (b11), or just Super Locrain.



Since I started this out comparing C Dorian, (2nd mode of Bb), to CMM. All of the notes of the Bb major scale, except Bb itself, are present in B Super Locrain. When we compare their intervallic relationship to B, we have the altered scale. This is why it is also called Ionian #1.

So you can see how that 1 note difference, in comparison between MM and a Dorian mode of the same root, (you could also compare MM to the major scale of the same root the same way), can make such a big change to the game. That note, B the M7 of CMM took us to a new plateau.

As long as one navigates with that one altered note in mind, things become easier to comprehend. But that 1 note does make a big difference in usage.

[Franklin52]

Thanks for taking the time to explain it Britt, I really appreciate it.

[brwnhornet59]

My pleasure Sir!! I hope it made sense!!

[Nuff Said]

I liked when it used to be called the "Jazz Minor".

Since I learn't all the modes, I find that there's a never ending amount of uses for the MM modes, they all overlap. I find that the only test is that it sounds good to me.

Good book Jonny, well done.

Nuff

[Nuff Said]

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