Melodic "Jazz" Minor Basics (Modes and Chords)

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

I liked when it used to be called the "Jazz Minor"

Ascending MM has been known as the jazz minor for a long time. I wasn't aware of this ever stopping.

[JonnyPac]

I think its called that to get people accustomed to classical only using it ascending and using the natural minor descending. "Jazz Minor" is a constant subset with modes, whereas MM means different things to different folks.

[brwnhornet59]

People may call it whatever they like.

Melodic Minor

Jazz minor

Harmonic Minor natural 6.

Dorian natural 7

Ionian b3

It does not matter as long as they know how to use it. The names attributed to the scale are just as subjective as the names people give the modes of MM, IMHO.

I personally call it MM. I look at the Classical usage of MM as being two different scales. Just my thing.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

"Jazz Minor" is a constant subset with modes.

+1

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Bigmagic

Jonny(I love your stuff by the way) I am not writing it off. I have Stowell's book and I study the stuff but I can't think of all those things when I play. I use Melodic Minor all the time(well I try to use it some lol) I just find it easier to think of it as a major scale with a flatted third. I have listened to interviews with a lot of jazz musicians and a lot of them keep things simple in their approach. I'm just learning jazz(for the last 10 years) after playing Rock,Blues and Country my whole life. The first thing I did was buy one of Aebersolds theory books on Major/Minor with the play along CDs. Being self taught absorbing all that theory both helped my playing and caused frustration. My summation to Music Theory is you can play any note any time you want if it works.(sounds like you have to use your ears) I still go back to the Stowell book and I find your excerpt interesting and worthy of study. I am not dissing theory there is no substitute for knowledge but everyone has to find an approach that works for them and for me I find that thinking in terms of 3rds, 7ths, 9ths and 13th natural or altered as they relate to the major scale easier. I use modes a lot as I'm sure a lot of us do but for me my fretboard approach is in terms of the major scale it derives from. I don't mean to dumb down the discussion, I think all of these things should be studied and practiced.

I always get tripped up with Melodic Minor when you derive chords from it and I would love to see you discuss this in more detail.Thanks.

By the way Jonny, do you think in terms of theory when your on the bandstand or let your practice guide your ears?

Theory guides intuition, so yes, ears first always! Sometimes you have to force-feed your ears a new diet though. Hearing ALT for the first time, usually gets students skeptical of its use, but as experience and recordings of the masters prove, it is a top choice in some forms of jazz (though there are others).

For "keeping it simple", the idea that you outline/voice the 1 b3 5 7 and 9 of the #1 MM mode over all of the modal MM chords is paramount. For example, play the upper structure (low-high) Ab C E G over a Bb bass note, and you get Bill Evan's favorite Lydian Dominant left-hand piano voicing (from F MM). If you outline FmM9 melodically you end up targeting the "good" notes of Bb7#11. By Putting E in the bass of that same exact upper structure, you get the favorite "ALT" voicing of many great jazz players, and so on.

Originally Posted by Bigmagic

I am a subscriber to Jonny's youtube channel and I study theory till my head hurts. I subscribe to Reg's channel as well and they both have been helpful. Honestly listening to them has been as rewarding as the theory discussed. Please continue teach me.

Thanks a ton! I'm planning on making some new video lessons this year to cover many things that make more sense to the ear than paper can provide. Stay tuned!

Originally Posted by Franklin52

It's time to order "Chord-Scale Theory and Linear Harmony for Guitar" now, thanks Jonny.

Thanks! I hope you get something out of it, and enjoy it to boot!

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

I liked when it used to be called the "Jazz Minor".

Since I learn't all the modes, I find that there's a never ending amount of uses for the MM modes, they all overlap. I find that the only test is that it sounds good to me.

Good book Jonny, well done.

Nuff

They overlap much more then the diatonic major/minor system indeed. So many cool "fresh" sounds to be had form just one subset! Thanks for checking it out here too.

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Thanks a ton! I'm planning on making some new video lessons this year to cover many things that make more sense to the ear than paper can provide. Stay tuned!

I'm looking forward to those video lessons, thanks.

[Melodic Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Franklin52

I'm looking forward to those video lessons, thanks.

Plus one for the videos. Thanks Jonnypac for your post. Seriously, It's really helped me see things better.

[JonnyPac]

Thanks a ton! I'm brain-storming lesson ideas right now. Probably have them up in a month or so! Stay tuned.

Glad you dig the chapter!

[JonnyPac]

At last!! Check it out! ...The vintage Omnichord rocks.

In this lesson I look at the basic construction of the scale (R M2 m3 P4 P5 M6 M7) and the tertiary triads that work to voice/outline the "definitive" Melodic Minor sounds. I chose "Lydian Dominant" as the example mode and point out that the same triads found in the basic 1st scale mode work wonderfully to emphasize the upper-structures (extensions) in both single-note runs and comping. These triads work great over all of the Melodic Minor chord-scale modes with the exception of the 5th one ("Mixolydian b6th") because of a non-stable P4 tone. Ultimately, I suggest jamming over each mode for an extended period to "make friends" with the harmony.

YouTube Video

[wizard3739]

JonnyPac, thanks very much for the PDF download! I am going through it now and the fresh viewpoint of many things I learned years ago is great for my old brain. I love it! I am looking at Melodic Minor again (my favorite improvisation sound) As you might guess, I have had the Levine book for many years as a reference because of the real life examples he refers to. However, the approach I am seeing in your book is more specific in terms of what an interested guitarist might prefer for reference material. Thanks very much for the "wake-up call", this is gonna be fun for me.

wiz

[brwnhornet59]

Great stuff Jonny! This will help a lot of the guys in here that are unsure about MM and some of it's uses.

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by wizard3739

JonnyPac, thanks very much for the PDF download! I am going through it now and the fresh viewpoint of many things I learned years ago is great for my old brain. I love it! I am looking at Melodic Minor again (my favorite improvisation sound) As you might guess, I have had the Levine book for many years as a reference because of the real life examples he refers to. However, the approach I am seeing in your book is more specific in terms of what an interested guitarist might prefer for reference material. Thanks very much for the "wake-up call", this is gonna be fun for me.

wiz

Gee, thanks a ton, wiz! That means a lot to me. Really. Kep me posted as you go along. BTW your hard copy will arrive early this week.

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Great stuff Jonny! This will help a lot of the guys in here that are unsure about MM and some of it's uses.

Thank you, my friend. Sure hope so!

[JonnyPac]

Here are the rest of the lesson videos that I made that afternoon:

Free Video Lessons - Chord-Scale Theory and Linear Harmony for Guitar: Creative Tools for Improvisation and Composition in Contemporary MusicJonathan "JonnyPac" Pac Cantin - Guitarist - Composer - Artist - Educator

[Melodic Dreamer]

I'm at work right now, so I can't view anything, but I'll have to check this out when I get home. The Melodic Minor scale has always been a weak point for me. I'm really looking forward to this, Thanx a bunch!

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by Melodic Dreamer

I'm at work right now, so I can't view anything, but I'll have to check this out when I get home. The Melodic Minor scale has always been a weak point for me. I'm really looking forward to this, Thanx a bunch!

Cool- I hope you get something out of it!

[MGranada]

At last!! Check it out! ...The vintage Omnichord rocks.

Hi Jonny , i was addicted to your omnichord beat and tone machine. So i found this omnichord emulator here https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jwiesler/220c/ for those who got addicted too hehe.

Direct link for download https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jwiesler/220c/jchordwin.zip

Great videos you are doing out there. Keep it up

[wizard3739]

Hey Jonny! I just received your book and it now occupies my home studio music stand. I love that plastic cover.

Wiz

[JonnyPac]

Originally Posted by MGranada

Hi Jonny , i was addicted to your omnichord beat and tone machine. So i found this omnichord emulator here https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jwiesler/220c/ for those who got addicted too hehe.

Direct link for download https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jwiesler/220c/jchordwin.zip

Great videos you are doing out there. Keep it up

Wow- that's hilarious and very cool all at once. Thanks!

Originally Posted by wizard3739

Hey Jonny! I just received your book and it now occupies my home studio music stand. I love that plastic cover.

Wiz

Wow- USPS is so fast these days! Glad you dig the cover- keeps it nice.

[meritonemusic]

great thread! Here's a backing track for your D melodic minor chops!

YouTube Video

[kris]

Barry Galbraith "Daily Exercises in the Melodic & Harmonic Minor Modes".
This is a great book for every jazz guitarist.

[Double 07]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Sure, it was mentioned earlier that there was some confusion with playing chord scales and arps from MM. So this is the formula for 1-7 chord scales. Lets use C MM as our subject. The first chord is:

C-M7 - 1 b3 5 7 - The altered note "B", is in this chord making it a major 7. 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7


D-7 - 1 b3 5 b7 - The B makes this chord have a natural 6, (13), so it is Dorian with a b2, (Eb). 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7


EbM7#5 (b13) - 1 3 #5 7 - The B is in this chord making it a #5, Or Lydian Augmented. 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7


F7 - 1 3 5 b7 - The B in this chord gives you a #4 (#11), so it is Lydian Dom. 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7


G7 - 1 3 5 b7 - The B in this chord is the 3rd, making it Major. This chord also has a b6 (b13) Eb. 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7


A-7b5 - 1 b3 b5 b7 - The B in this chord gives it a natural 2nd. Locrain 9. 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7


B-7b5 - 1 b3 b5 b7; 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7.

Notice how the b4 is also the major 3rd? That is how the altered scale gets it's major sound. So you usually see it written like this. B7 b9 #9 b5 #5. All of the alterations are present in this scale.

You look at this Scale as Locrain b4 (b11), or just Super Locrain.



Since I started this out comparing C Dorian, (2nd mode of Bb), to CMM. All of the notes of the Bb major scale, except Bb itself, are present in B Super Locrain. When we compare their intervallic relationship to B, we have the altered scale. This is why it is also called Ionian #1.

So you can see how that 1 note difference, in comparison between MM and a Dorian mode of the same root, (you could also compare MM to the major scale of the same root the same way), can make such a big change to the game. That note, B the M7 of CMM took us to a new plateau.

As long as one navigates with that one altered note in mind, things become easier to comprehend. But that 1 note does make a big difference in usage.

Right on brownhornet excellent analysis as usual

[Nuff Said]

Its a great scale for creating tension on the dominant chord, with great note links to the tonic chord tones.

I love it, thanks
Nuff

[JonnyPac]

Here's Matt's new lesson on MM too!

Guitar Scales Made Easy: Simple Formula to Learn All 7 Modes of Melodic Minor | MattWarnockGuitar.com

[Reg]

MM... along with Modal Interchange, Modal style concepts and Blue Note influences... are the basic four Harmonic/Melodic sources for playing jazz.
Part of the difficulty of playing jazz... the methodology of how we organize those basic four sources... their relationships and interactions along with, "European Classical Traditional Harmonic and Melodic Practice" simultaneously and characteristically in a jazz style.
How we get from concept or theory to application...playing.
Melodic Minor, in a jazz context is simply one of those sources... you can think of them as four doors... which are always open.
Obviously we need to be technically proficient with use of and be able to hear pitch organization, characteristic pitches and intervals... the two tritones, no avoid notes and their organization etc... But that is just the first level of application... There are many sets of rules or guidelines that organize our concepts and relationships and help realize in an application that reflects playing in a jazz style.
When you begin... Melodic Minor is simply a collection of notes which has a Minor reference. You can move from that point on. That collection of notes can become whatever you choose, be used in whatever context you choose... theoretically or through trial and error. But generally there is a starting point, a point of reference.
I'll make some new videos... but here's an old example of one simple application of using Melodic Minor. Simple II- V7, Bb to Eb.
One concept of this application could be Modal Interchange as source for pitch collections. I should still have a basic improvisation concept to help organize how I would solo... Even when I'm playing what ever I hear... there is Form.

YouTube Video

Thanks Reg

[brwnhornet59]

Hey Reg welcome back. Where have you been?

[JonnyPac]

Yay Reg! I missed you, bro! Thanks for adding your expertise.

[whatswisdom]

Back at the ranch. Yay! Good to see you again.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Thanks for the nice feedback and additional info/comments. I'm glad some of you dig it. Enjoy!

Your video gave me a great picture of how Melodic Minor can be used in Jazz.

I learned this scale a couple of years ago but was not creative enough to come up with any inspiring improvisation.

It was kind of weird to me in that as you play through it from the root, you have this flatted third which hints at the sadness/somberness of the minor tonality, and then all of a sudden you climb up to a 6th and 7th, just as in the major scale, with all its "brightness/cheer" (which is how major tonality is often described).

It seems to me this one of those scales that can allow you to express happiness and somberness, all in one line. This gives an improviser great flexibility in expressing themselves.

Would you say this is an fair and accurate description of the MM scale?

[Reg]

Good to hear and read about jazz guitar again... I'll try and make lots of video posts and motivate us all to get our playing together.
AlsoRan... MM is simply one of the tools used by jazz players. Typically, MM is used more like Blue Notes and their influence on harmony and improvisation... as compared to deriving functional harmony from pitch collection and typical chord construction. Although there are plenty of examples of compositions and improvisation derived with traditional harmonic and melodic use. I'll make a new Video showing the differences of applications. What becomes somewhat more complicated is that... MM is usually used in context and simultaneously with other concepts.
Your description is cool with me, the flexibility might be one of the keys to using in a jazz style...
Reg

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Reg

Good to hear and read about jazz guitar again... I'll try and make lots of video posts and motivate us all to get our playing together.
AlsoRan... MM is simply one of the tools used by jazz players. Typically, MM is used more like Blue Notes and their influence on harmony and improvisation... as compared to deriving functional harmony from pitch collection and typical chord construction. Although there are plenty of examples of compositions and improvisation derived with traditional harmonic and melodic use. I'll make a new Video showing the differences of applications. What becomes somewhat more complicated is that... MM is usually used in context and simultaneously with other concepts.
Your description is cool with me, the flexibility might be one of the keys to using in a jazz style...
Reg

I will be waiting for that video!