information overload, just want to play

[larryb]

I'm a 61 year old life long guitar learner. Piano, too, but have let that fall by the wayside in recent years to indulge my passion (obsession?) with guitar. I have a decent fundamental understanding of theory, scales, chord construction, etc, but understanding is one thing, and putting to use is another. It seems that I keep buy one great book and course after another, each with a different focus on learning jazz. Books on mastering scales, books on ii-V-I lines, book on chord melody construction, etc. All fabulous books and all with the highest reviews. But I'm beginning to get paralyzed by worrying about all that I have to think about. I almost feel like I want to forget the books and just sit down with my guitar and work through a song, figuring out chords along the way, figuring out chord melodies, figuring out improv lines and not worrying about all the stuff that I'm supposed to think about, and just using my ear (and my fundamental theoretical knowledge).

Is that a bad way to go about trying to learn jazz (in the hopes of learning chord melody and some improv). If I were 21 and not 61, I feel like I could plan out the next 10 or 20 years and get all of my chops down. But at 61, there is that limited time thing and I just want to play. So, what are your thoughts about saying "forget the books and use what I know to just figure it out?"

[JakeAcci]

I think the issue is that when you use a book or any method - whether its your own invention or that of your teacher - you have to internalize each step before you move forward.

So any single thing (one tip, for example) in those books I think it's up to the player to spend a lot of time playing and practicing that one thing until it's internalized, ingrained, natural, and the player can perform it without thinking.

The first thing in my opinion is...if you've been given different ii V I 'licks,' play those licks over and over, in all keys, try all sorts of variations, and I believe that after enough time doing this you'll be able to improvise your own ii V I lines in the style of those that you've practiced.

The problem with books in my view is that sometimes they contain so much information and the reader might feel it's his duty to digest all of it. A little bit of well applied knowledge is much more valuable then a wealth of knowledge that hasn't been put to practice yet.

[mr. beaumont]

Mr. Beaumont's boring story he's told a thousand times alert:


The year I spent setting aside scales, modes, books, etc. And just concentrated on teaching myself chord melody through trial and error was the best thing I ever did for my playing...I learned the fretboard inside out, learned how to construct chords, started truly visualizing chords as pools of notes (not just "grips")which helped my improv too.

The most important thing it showed me though was that even a music as complex as jazz is still about playing songs.

[Kman]

We can only process so much. With jazz you have to take one thing at a time. When the brain finally does internalize something it usually stays with you.

[peejay]

larryb, you and I have a lot in common. I am also 61 and a life long learner and have also meddled with keybords along the way. I also have a shelf and computer full of music books, some great and some not so good. I'm following the Leavitt MM1 thread on this site in an effort to try and learn to read music - I've always played using tabs. Slow going but I'm making some progress. For me the best advice is that given by Mr B - learn to play songs / chord melody by what ever method suits you best. I've made more progress doing that in the last year than in the previous 40 odd years of going from one book and method to another.

[ESCC]

LarryB, I feel your pain, I'm in a fairly similar place, 58 years old, fundamental understanding of music theory, etc.. my approach and recommendation is to play songs and have fun!
My realization is that at my age, I'm going to be too old to play or too old to remember what I just played by the time I understand (comprehend) music theory and specifically "jazz" to the point of being able to learn tunes, play and improvise "seemingly" effortlessly, it ain't going to happen in my lifetime.

Since joining this forum - which has provided the most insightful perspectives and experiences as well as productive lessons in approaching jazz guitar - the single most repeated piece of advice I've read is play songs, I've taken that to heart and that is my approach. Everything I do not know about music is far greater than what it is I do know so I can't forsake lessons and tutorials, but learning to play tunes is my first priority, the lessons gained from learning the tune (and some research) follow and make the experience that much more gratifying. I agree with Mr. B, I find that chord melodies are very beneficial in expanding my understanding of notes and chords as well as improving my technical development.

You are learning music to HAVE FUN & PLAY TUNES, so you might as well get on with the fun part!

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Larry...

It seems that there's almost enough of us old duffers to start our own forum..! I'm in exactly the same position, at past 61, with the certainty that I shall never be able to absorb, much less execute, 5% of what's already on offer on this very site, let alone the books, DVD's etc... that I've accumulated. I'll probably never get to the end of Mickey Baker Vol I, despite working on it for 40 years..!
My ambitions have never been to play 'pro'; simply for my own pleasure. The best I've come across which fits my bill is the 60-odd chord melody pdf's downloadable from Matt Warnock's excellent site. I have them in a binder, and will spend the next few years (that's to say, while I still can...) going through them, one at a time, as the fancy takes me. I have no interest in the esoteric debates on double ##'s, or tonewood, or classical fingering, I just throw my fingers at the strings and enjoy being lucky sometimes.
Play what inspires you, as best as you can and enjoy it. It's too late to start thinking of how to pull chicks with your melodic minor or economy picking. For my part, I leave that to the young (not that I have the choice...).
You're definitely not alone.

[cosmic gumbo]

It could be, and should be done by ear. That's a step you don't want to leave out. You need some basic theory and hours of trial and error.

[Gramps]

Another geezer here.

What I try to do is learn a small concept and apply it to all the songs I know. The fact that I don't have to worry about impressing anyone else keeps the learning and playing fun.

If I were a glass half empty type of person though the jazz path would probably send me over the edge since the more I play and learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn.

My advice is do what makes you happy and enjoy the journey.

[larryb]

What great comments from everyone! Very helpful. It's funny how we seek permission sometimes to do what makes the most amount of sense. Play.
I'll do it! Thanks.

[augusjazz]

Beyond wanting to play for pleasure or to be professional, how important is a desire to play better out of personal need, not obsession.

[tachee500]

Holy Cow!! I could have written these posts as well, and Larry, my name is also Larry B.! I'm 50, been playing about 9 years, discovered jazz about 3 years ago.

In the last couple of months its occurred to me that I need to stop learning, and just play. I have a wealth of "passive" jazz knowledge (theory, scales, etc.), but when do I ever really play and use the knowledge. At some point playing in my music room with my computer just doesn't cut it.

Question: How do us middle age guys find people to play with who are in like situations? I looked at the local guitar shop bulletin board, and those are all for semi-pro bands or gigging bands. I'm not near that level. Since we're not in high school or college anymore, we don't have hundreds of age appropriate peers at the similar skill level hanging around. Any ideas! I'm not the next Joe Pass, but I think I have a lot of music in me I want to express.

Larry

[bako]

There are many people in a similar situation, hoping to find other people to play with for fun and growth.
I am sure it varies by location and NYC is probably not a good representation of most places, so what do I know.
Community music schools, bulletin boards, craigslist, word of mouth, internet forums, recommendations from local music teachers.
Keep trying, good luck.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

The problem with books in my view is that sometimes they contain so much information and the reader might feel it's his duty to digest all of it.

Boy, what a great thread!!! I think folks get bogged down because they feel they have to learn the whole book. I have stacks of books and thoroughly enjoy taking what I need when I need it. Advancing Guitarist could be the only book you'd ever need but that's less interesting to me than exploring what many good jazz authors have to offer. Ligon, etc. This site... Matt... jonnypac. I too wish I could play with other musicians at will. Mr. B: cool advice on CM.

[brwnhornet59]

Lot's of great advice. Information overload is easy to get. Jake's point hit home when he stated it is the players job to digest and internalize the material. It is much better to master one idea than to half @ss learn many. One idea can lead you to many many many more solid motifs. I have found on my journey that the most important thing for me, is to play this stuff inside out against everything I practice. ii V I sequences are a great example. Rather than learn 20 ways to solo over it, take 2-3 ways and tear them apart. See how and why they work. Then start taking these devices and apply them to your own ideas. I am amazed how similar all of the approach's are once I saw and heard how they work. Now it is becoming easier to do this on the fly using my own ideas rather than a lick I learned from a book or a recording. Do the same thing when transcribing. I think the Masters did this the same way. Unless one can truly utilize what they know, the knowledge is useless. IMHO

[tytlfamily]

I thought I was the only one that felt like this! Same here, this board has so much info, it is hard not to feel overwhelmed and a bit intimidated by all there is to learn.....
So I am going to do what you all have been suggesting....just start playing more. I am going to start learning allot more tunes from the real book, and take it easy on the improv. One arp per chord, and not worry about trying to be flashy, or how much theory knowledge I have/don't have for now.

I am going to play more, have fun, and let the chips fall where they may. and once I get the confidence up a bit more, start trying to participate in the practical standards working group monthly song.

Cheers,

Tytl

[fep]

I know what you mean, sometimes you just want a beer and this (music at 1:45):

I bet they're not wondering where they might be able to fit in that locrian #2 scale. And before you bash this music as being so simple, consider Rudgren's house, lifestyle, and hula girl.

Jazz? maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

YouTube Video

[tytlfamily]

oh yeah baby.....I'll take some roasted pig please!

[larryb]

Ya'll won't believe this, but I interviewed Todd Rundgren around 40 years ago when I was working on my graduate degree in sociology and wrote my masters thesis on what leads rock groups to break up. Interviewed Todd in his NYC Greenwich Village apt. I still have it on tape somewhere.

[larryb]

The problem I have, though, is that it's a bit of a like letting go of an addiction. I am worried that if I stop practicing all those technique things and the i-IV-V licks, and the scales, etc, I'll lose them. But then again, what's the point of having them if I'm not going to use them. And maybe the idea is to use just what I need and practice just what I need for whatever song it is I am working on. I guess that makes a whole lot more sense because there is no possible way that I would be able to master all of those things anyway at my age.

On to music and fun. (And maybe I'll sneak in some technique practice here and there to warm up.)

Originally Posted by tytlfamily

I thought I was the only one that felt like this! Same here, this board has so much info, it is hard not to feel overwhelmed and a bit intimidated by all there is to learn.....
So I am going to do what you all have been suggesting....just start playing more. I am going to start learning allot more tunes from the real book, and take it easy on the improv. One arp per chord, and not worry about trying to be flashy, or how much theory knowledge I have/don't have for now.

I am going to play more, have fun, and let the chips fall where they may. and once I get the confidence up a bit more, start trying to participate in the practical standards working group monthly song.

Cheers,

Tytl

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by fep

I know what you mean, sometimes you just want a beer and this (music at 1:45):

I bet they're not wondering where they might be able to fit in that locrian #2 scale. And before you bash this music as being so simple, consider Rudgren's house, lifestyle, and hula girl.

Jazz? maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Well, the money has no grip on me. I gave that illusion up long ago. But I have always Loved Todd and the Lion Sleeps Tonight is a beautiful tune.

There is much to be said about simple music and luaus. They tend to lift us to places we forgot existed. Besides the simplest of music can give you the most freedom, IMHO.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by larryb

The problem I have, though, is that it's a bit of a like letting go of an addiction. I am worried that if I stop practicing all those technique things and the i-IV-V licks, and the scales, etc, I'll lose them.

No, never stop practicing ideas. Never stop pushing yourself to be able bridge the gap between what you know and what you can play. A lot of guys fall into the trap of having amassed so much knowledge, yet do not have a clue what to do with it. That is useless.

Restructuring your practice routine is the best bet, at least it was for me. Give your self time to work out several really good ideas. Work on them and them only. Then make sure you give yourself time to digest and then apply them by soloing for a bit. Then move onto other basics and keep it fresh. This is a very helpful approach for the day in day out routine rut we all tend to fall into. It also gives us proof of our advancement. Record yourself every week doing the same tune. See how you progress. You might be surprised.

Just a thought.

[mr. beaumont]

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not Wisdom. Wisdom is not truth...


The biggest thing about information is amassing too much of it without really "knowing" it. Better for a player to take 3 ideas and milk them for everything they have to offer than to dabble in 30 ideas.

Know what you know...but also know when it's time to try something new, too.

[Bigmagic]

I too am in a similar situation, I am 57 and a lifelong guitar player. When I played in Rock or Country bands I was always learning tunes. I'm pretty well versed in theory I'm just not happy with my jazz phrasing. I bought a Djembe and am working with it to improve my phrasing. I joined Truefire as a student($15 a month) and get to watch all of their stuff some of which is really good. I don't think there is a substitute for playing the music. One tip I will say has helped me, don't think about theory except when practicing, when you play...play.

I got to say the music at the pig roast was swinging, I'm not sure if you can call it jazz but it swung.

[ESCC]

[quote=mr. beaumont;196766]Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not Wisdom. Wisdom is not truth...


The biggest thing about information is amassing too much of it without really "knowing" it. . .

SHIBUMI, understanding without knowledge. That was the name of one of my sailboats due to it being my appraoch to sailing and - too frequently - my approach to playing guitar. Hmmm do you think it's the same as ignorance is bliss?

[va3ux]

Larry,

Reading your post reminded me of this classic thread from the Usenet/Google Group : rec.music.maker.guitar.jazz.

It fit's right in with this thread :

https://groups.google.com/group/rec....7b 3dd2e4d4c9

[larryb]

Wow! Incredible how accurate that is.

There must be a lesson book on how to get through this. (That was a joke.....I think. But the sad truth is that if there were, those of us going through this condition would probably buy it.) It's amazing how we can have so much desire and so much dedication, and yet still face this dilemma. Sometimes I think that if I worked this hard at my job, I would be at the absolute top of my profession.

Originally Posted by va3ux

Larry,

Reading your post reminded me of this classic thread from the Usenet/Google Group : rec.music.maker.guitar.jazz.

It fit's right in with this thread :

https://groups.google.com/group/rec....7b 3dd2e4d4c9

[va3ux]

I hear you loud and clear my friend. I'm 57 now, and I'm in the same club as you. My mental stamina and ability are not what they used to be. Couple that with an enormous amount of available musical information - all of it supposedly necessary in order to be able to play - and it's just overwhelming.

Recognizing that this situation was causing me to freeze in my tracks and go absolutely nowhere, I decided a few years ago to turn my back on the "need to know how everything works before I can play" mentality. I bought both of Barry Galbraith's chord solo books, and started to learn some of those pieces. The sheet music along with the recorded performances on the CDs is what I needed to get moving. It's a short-cut of sorts : I can now play music - which is all I wanted to do in the first place - but I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. Unless I look at the book, I don't know the names of the chords I'm playing, or what key the tune is in, or even what the time signature is. Part of me doesn't care because playing the music is 'the goal'. But I have to admit that now that I'm 'making music' (in my own amateur world), I am becoming more interested in 'why this chord' and 'why is that chord jammed in between those two', etc. So maybe now I actually do have a reason and interest to learn some music theory/harmony, whereas before it seemed to be an endless road with no purpose.

Years prior to this, I learned scales of all sorts all over the neck, 2 and 3 octaves. Why ? Well, you're supposed to know that stuff. Supposedly I needed all that stuff so I can learn to solo as one instructor told me. Solo ? There isn't going to be a solo ! There's no quartet; no trio, no duo; there never will be. There's only ever going to be me at home with a guitar, wanting to play complete music (rather than single note lines). Wasted all kinds of time on that stuff and at the end of it, I couldn't play a single tune. How many more years was I supposed to follow that path before I was entitled to start making music ? How many years do I have left ? Hence, my jump to pre-packaged Chord Melody solo books.

Folks like you and I need a different approach than the traditional approach. At least I *think* we do.

[larryb]

You are probably right. I'm not going out gigging. At best, I'll jam with some friends on occasion, but that's mostly blues stuff and I can get by with some blues soloing though still working on that. But you are right. Most of my playing is at home. Who knows when I retire, but that will be 10 years from now, but either way, it's mostly for myself. I do have some chord melody books. Have Jazz Guitar Standards (put out by Mel Bay) and some Howard Morgen chord melody instructional books, with pre-arranged pieces in there. So, maybe that's the approach for guys like us. Learn the pre-arranged songs, and then once we learn them, start picking them apart and seeing where we go from there. I do still practice scales and ii-V-I exercises a bit, but it's less than 25% of my practice time. They help me warm up and loosen up and I have to believe that some of that stuff is sinking in in a way that might make a difference at some point. But, yeah, I hear you about playing arrangements. That makes sense. And it becomes sort of a finite experience. Pick one out. Play it a zillion times until it's learned. Move on to the next.

I love this thread.

Originally Posted by va3ux

I hear you loud and clear my friend. I'm 57 now, and I'm in the same club as you. My mental stamina and ability are not what they used to be. Couple that with an enormous amount of available musical information - all of it supposedly necessary in order to be able to play - and it's just overwhelming.

Recognizing that this situation was causing me to freeze in my tracks and go absolutely nowhere, I decided a few years ago to turn my back on the "need to know how everything works before I can play" mentality. I bought both of Barry Galbraith's chord solo books, and started to learn some of those pieces. The sheet music along with the recorded performances on the CDs is what I needed to get moving. It's a short-cut of sorts : I can now play music - which is all I wanted to do in the first place - but I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. Unless I look at the book, I don't know the names of the chords I'm playing, or what key the tune is in, or even what the time signature is. Part of me doesn't care because playing the music is 'the goal'. But I have to admit that now that I'm 'making music' (in my own amateur world), I am becoming more interested in 'why this chord' and 'why that is that chord jammed in between those two', etc. So maybe now I actually do have a reason and interest to learn some music theory/harmony, whereas before it seemed to be an endless road with no purpose.

Years prior to this, I learned scales of all sorts all over the neck, 2 and 3 octaves. Why ? Well, you're supposed to know that stuff. Supposedly I needed all that stuff so I can learn to solo as one instructor told me. Solo ? There isn't going to be a solo ! There's no quartet; no trio, no duo; there never will be. There's only ever going to be me at home with a guitar, wanting to play complete music (rather than single note lines). Wasted all kinds of time on that stuff and at the end of it, I couldn't play a single tune. How many more years was I supposed to follow that path before I was entitled to start making music ? How many years do I have left ? Hence, my jump to pre-packaged Chord Melody solo books.

Folks like you and I need a different approach than the traditional approach. At least I *think* we do.

[Franklin52]

Originally Posted by va3ux

I hear you loud and clear my friend. I'm 57 now, and I'm in the same club as you. My mental stamina and ability are not what they used to be. Couple that with an enormous amount of available musical information - all of it supposedly necessary in order to be able to play - and it's just overwhelming.

Recognizing that this situation was causing me to freeze in my tracks and go absolutely nowhere, I decided a few years ago to turn my back on the "need to know how everything works before I can play" mentality. I bought both of Barry Galbraith's chord solo books, and started to learn some of those pieces. The sheet music along with the recorded performances on the CDs is what I needed to get moving. It's a short-cut of sorts : I can now play music - which is all I wanted to do in the first place - but I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. Unless I look at the book, I don't know the names of the chords I'm playing, or what key the tune is in, or even what the time signature is. Part of me doesn't care because playing the music is 'the goal'. But I have to admit that now that I'm 'making music' (in my own amateur world), I am becoming more interested in 'why this chord' and 'why that is that chord jammed in between those two', etc. So maybe now I actually do have a reason and interest to learn some music theory/harmony, whereas before it seemed to be an endless road with no purpose.

Years prior to this, I learned scales of all sorts all over the neck, 2 and 3 octaves. Why ? Well, you're supposed to know that stuff. Supposedly I needed all that stuff so I can learn to solo as one instructor told me. Solo ? There isn't going to be a solo ! There's no quartet; no trio, no duo; there never will be. There's only ever going to be me at home with a guitar, wanting to play complete music (rather than single note lines). Wasted all kinds of time on that stuff and at the end of it, I couldn't play a single tune. How many more years was I supposed to follow that path before I was entitled to start making music ? How many years do I have left ? Hence, my jump to pre-packaged Chord Melody solo books.

Folks like you and I need a different approach than the traditional approach. At least I *think* we do.

So true... great post va3ux.