The Minor Blues

dirkji · #1 06-24-2008, 10:28 AM

Discussion, feedback and questions about The Minor Blues Chord Progression Lesson and The Minor Blues Scales come in this thread...

skei · #2 06-24-2008, 02:12 PM

I simply love it!
It'll probably take some hours of mindbending to get it right in this old head of mine, but it is great stuff.
I've been thinking 'bout jazz blues for some time, I used to play in a regular blues band in my teens, and we played standard 12 bar stuff, zz top muddy and stuff, but I always wondered about jazz blues, it's a bit more stretched, as I suspected, and that I like a lot!
Waiting eagerly for the next lesson while digesting this one...
Cheers!
Skei

samuelparsons · #3 06-24-2008, 02:26 PM

can somebody explain the meaning of "alt" on chords, such as the "G7alt?" Thanks!

skei · #4 06-24-2008, 03:06 PM

I don't know what 'alt means, but I know you can form the chord like this:
323003
which means the only difference from your standard G is you take the F on your Gstring, seems a bit to simple to me, but I found it on the web, might not be right, but I use it for open chord anyway...
Peace
(I'm sure the chord book has a good explanation, I'll look)

Jazzaluk · #5 06-24-2008, 04:05 PM

The the Altered dominant is a term that implies a dominant chord built on the seventh degree of the MinMelodic scale.

So, G7Alt would come from the Ab MMel scale. The result is a dominant chord that has all the possible altered tones, that is: b9,#9,b5, and #5.
When you see Alt in a chart it's a strong hint at which scale to use.

On the guitar, a particular chord voicing will usually only use a couple of the altered tones. ie G7b9#5 (common voicing below)

||---|---|---|-0-|---|
||---|---|---|-0-|---|
||---|---|---|-0-|---|
||---|---|-0-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-0-|---|---|

Hope this helps, I'm not very adept at explaining these things. I'm sure others may have a better spin.

m78w · #6 06-24-2008, 04:53 PM

Jazzaluk has it, the "alt" chord can have any or all of these extensions, b9, #9, b5, #5. So you could have a C7b9,b5 chord, or a C7#9#5 chord, or any combination of those alterations.

MW

derek · #7 06-24-2008, 05:12 PM

Fun stuff Matt. I play a minor blues in C in my solo set. There are a couple of changes here I don't use. I will be using some of those. Seems I spend every other post thanking you for something. Thanks!

m78w · #8 06-24-2008, 05:14 PM

Glad you dug the lesson, the Minor Blues is sometimes left behind and we end up spending most of our shedding time on the major blues. I should really use more of those changes myself!

MW

wizard3739 · #9 06-24-2008, 08:31 PM

Good job on the lesson, Matt!

best wishes,
wiz

m78w · #10 06-24-2008, 09:12 PM

Thanks Wiz, much appreciated!

MW

Kennie · #11 06-24-2008, 11:08 PM

S thats' what an alt chord is - altered and built on the Min melodic scale. Thanks Jazzaluk.

Kennie · #12 06-24-2008, 11:09 PM

S thats' what an alt chord is - altered and built on the Min melodic scale. Thanks Jazzaluk. Tho as a Newbie I'm not entirely sure what the MinMel scale is! Does is correspond to any of the modes cos i know some of them.

Stringbean · #13 06-24-2008, 11:29 PM

wow, great stuff, i'm hooked on example 7 at the moment. it's really fun playing these changes, makes me glad to be a player.

I have a question about substitute chords in general.

Looking a example 1 in the lesson, I noticed that the chords are the same as those used in the first part of Blue Bossa. We learned that for a beginner, the Eb major scale works well for soloing over those chords. Now, I assume the Eb major scale will also work for playing over the example 1 Cminor Blues changes.

My question is: Will the Eb major scale work for playing over all 11 substitution examples? I'm a bit unsure as to what substituting does to original basic harmony. I guess I'm over my head, as I'm not even sure exactly what my question is.

Here's another way I'm thinking about it. Will the melodies listed (Mr. P.C., Equinox, Birk's Works etc) work played over the substitution examples? I guess I should make some recordings and try it for myself!

thanks for the lesson

m78w · #14 06-25-2008, 07:45 AM

Hey Stringbean,
Good eyes! The first six bars are similar to the first four bars of blue bossa, and you can use the Eb major scale over those chords. Some jazzers would also use the C dorian scale, and the C melodic minor scale over the Cm7 chord as well.

For the subs though you would have to change scales to fit each chord. For example, when the Dm7b5 chord is subbed by Ab7, you'd have to use Ab mixolydian or other 7th chord scale over that chord. You couldn't use the same scale that you would use over Dm7b5.

That's why it gets tricky when adding subs, because you have to think about a bunch of new scales to play. And these subs are more for blowing. Some might work with the melodies provided, but normally guys would play the basic chords for the melody and start adding the subs for the blowing section to help give it variety.

Matt

dlight · #15 06-25-2008, 03:28 PM

Yet another great lesson! A fine companion piece to the last one! Another permanent addition to my Jazz Guitar computer file! Many thanks!

m78w · #16 06-25-2008, 03:54 PM

Thanks! Glad you dug the lesson. Stay tuned for the second half that will be posted next week and will talk a bit about some scales to use over the minor blues.

MW

teledyn · #17 06-26-2008, 09:09 PM

I thought I was following pretty well until I got to the 10th exercise and found this:

Quote:

we use the Cm7 chord which moves down by a tone to the Bb7 chord, which moves down by another tone to Ab7, which becomes the tri-tone of G7

and that's where I get lost, so here's my novice question: isn't Db7 the tritone of G7?

m78w · #18 06-26-2008, 09:20 PM

Yeah that sentence was worded a little funny so we changed it to read:

"Which moves down by another tone to Ab7, which becomes the bII7 of G7."

Sorry for the confusion, hope the new wording is better.

MW

jmarian · #19 06-27-2008, 09:19 AM

Love the lessons. Thanks for making them available. For sheer convenience it would be great if the chord voicings could be included with the lesson. I'm a little slow and it could take me days to figure out the voicing for some of these very cool chords! I downloaded the free chord book (thanks for that too!) but not all chords are listed. Thanks for considering it.

teledyn · #20 06-27-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmarian

it would be great if the chord voicings could be included with the lesson. I'm a little slow and it could take me days to figure out the voicing for some of these very cool chords!

Voicings are not super difficult, especially on the guitar. Just take it slow, small steps, walk before you run. A general rule of thumb: stay within a few frets of where you are, cultivate laziness with economical hand positioning and where possible seek voicings with cool chromatic runs.

But overall, just explore, practice and persevere.

We all started out slow, even Charlie Parker was famously laughed off the stage, but that's what this game is all about. Sun Ra said, you should never "love yourself" because when you hate what you are, it pushes you to a better tomorrow; in music, that world of tomorrow is infinite. My teen son once said, "All the music I can play is boring and all the music I want to play is too difficult." and I said, "Me too." -- I was later talking to long-time soul and swing jazz drummer Luqman Ali, only a few months before he passed on at about age 70, and I told him that story. "Yeah," he said, "Me too."

Herby · #21 07-11-2008, 11:46 AM

I've learned a lot from this lesson, thanks. I heard shades of "Lullaby of Birdland" and am starting to hear how George Shearing put it together. Thanks again.

m78w · #22 07-11-2008, 12:48 PM

Glad you dug the lesson man, make sure to check out the second part to the lesson that should be up soon.

MW

Stackabones · #23 07-12-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teledyn

We all started out slow, even Charlie Parker was famously laughed off the stage, but that's what this game is all about. Sun Ra said, you should never "love yourself" because when you hate what you are, it pushes you to a better tomorrow; in music, that world of tomorrow is infinite. My teen son once said, "All the music I can play is boring and all the music I want to play is too difficult." and I said, "Me too." -- I was later talking to long-time soul and swing jazz drummer Luqman Ali, only a few months before he passed on at about age 70, and I told him that story. "Yeah," he said, "Me too."

Wow. Good to know that it keeps on keepin' on!

RichVincent · #24 07-13-2008, 07:33 AM

That is a great lesson. I discovered it by browsing.It is allready downloaded and bound in spiral and I am using it as a long lesson. Any idea when the scales will be up?
Thanks
Richard

m78w · #25 07-13-2008, 08:37 AM

Glad you dug the lesson Rich, the scales should be up shortly, keep your eyes peeled.

MW

m78w · #26 07-23-2008, 12:57 PM

For those of you who were asking about it, the lesson on minor blues scales is now up, check it out!

MW

buddha12 · #27 07-23-2008, 06:53 PM

I've been reading the minor blues lessons, and have a small problem. I almost always understand everything in terms of the harmonized major scale - so of course when something based on the harmonized minor scale comes along I can't really make sense of it. Can someone tell me how the harmonized minor scale works? In otherwords, I know the ii chord is always a m7 when working with the major scale - how does this concept translate to the minor scale? Thank you kindly for the input.

m78w · #28 07-23-2008, 07:33 PM

Here's the harmonized melodic minor scale, the most common minor scale used in jazz.

imMaj7

II7susb9

IIImaj7#5

IV7#11

V7b13

vim7b5(natural 9)

VII7alt(b9,#9,b5,#5)

BUT when we play a minor key 2-5-1 we use these chords.

iim7b5-V7alt-im7(or imMaj7)

hope that helps!

MW

buddha12 · #29 07-23-2008, 07:59 PM

Thanks Matt, that's just what I needed!

funnyval · #30 07-24-2008, 09:56 AM

I've heard Joe Pass say in various places that he doesn't think about the IIm chord in II-V progressions, although he covers the different minor scales in detail in his method books. Is that the type of thinking you are using when playing V altered scales over the IIm7b5?

For example, for minor blues measures 9-10, over the Dm7b5 G7alt, the G altered (Ab melodic minor) scale is recommended. Analyzing this over the Dm7b5, you get the 11, b5, b13, 13, natural 7, b9 and b3. How is this rationalized, or am I being too rational? It can sound good, but why does this work, especially the Db note.

For Gm7b5 in measure 4, do you ever recommend using G locrian (Ab major) or G locrian natural 9 (Bb melodic minor) which keeps the A note.

Or for Dm7b5 in measure 9, do you ever recommend D locrian (Eb major)? Proably wouldn't tend to think D locrian natural 9 (F melodic minor) here since that would give you the non-key E natural note.

Or do you ever just think Ab major for Gm7b5 C7alt and Eb major for Dm7b5 G7alt and catch the chord tones in the 7 chords if desired?