The Minor Blues

[m78w]

Good questions!

For the ii-V in bars 9-10 I am "ignoring" the ii chord and focusing on the V7alt chord. A lot of players do this, but a lot don't. I used that approach in this lesson to get the idea of the altered scale out there without complicating things too much right away. The next step would be to add the iim7b5 scale, and in this case I would stick with D Locrian as it has the Eb in it, which is related to the tonic key of C minor.

For the Gm7b5 in meaure, again in this case I "ignored" it and focused on the C7alt chord when choosing a scale for blowing, but if I were to play over it I would use G Locrian because it contains the Ab note which relates it closely to the key of F minor, where it resolves in the next bar.

I don't really think of Ab major over C7alt and Eb major over G7alt. I know some people do this, it's the opposite of what I did because it "ignores" the V7alt chord in favor of the iim7b5 chord. But I wouldn't recommend this because the sound of V7alt to im7 is so strong that if we are going to leave out one of the chords it should be the ii not the V. That way you still get a strong tension-release sound between V and i.

MW

[funnyval]

I for one encourage you to bring on the complexity! I look forward to hearing your thinking on how to solo over all the examples from minor blues lesson one. This is turning into one of the best writeups I've seen on minor blues. Thanks.

[m78w]

Well for the more complex changes from the first lesson I would tend to rely more on patterns/licks, especially at a fast tempo.

When it gets into the cycle type stuff I would rely on Trane patterns like 87b78, 87b79, 3#123, 6#456, 1353, 5313 etc.

They allow you to outline the chords, plus you're not thinking about big bulky scales when you're trying to play 2 chords per bar at a quick tempo.
MW

[wizard3739]

Wow! Another home run for Matt! Nice job on the scales for minor blues improvisation!

[m78w]

Glad you dig the lesson, I hope it's helpful.

MW

[Sailor]

Matt is it crazy to think of Fdorian as just "notes" of Eb major. It's easier for me, I dont know why... and it seems more realted (Eb) to Cm than Fdorian

Sailor

[m78w]

It's not crazy. The only reason I think of it as F Dorian is because it is being played over Fm7. It's easier for me to relate to the chord if I think of the scale starting on that note. But whatever works for you is fine, there are many ways to think about these things. All that matters is the music that comes out and however you have to think about it to get that music out works.

MW

[funnyval]

Sometimes it's also easier for me to think Dorian up a minor third on the m7b5 chords. So for example on Dm7b5, rather than think D Locrian, I'll use F Dorian as a guide. Same notes, but it really produces a different feel.

Another advantage to this is that you then are using the same scale pattern for both the IVm7 and the IIm7b5.

Another thing I like about doing this is that the Melodic Minor scale for altered 7 sounds is then a minor third above the Dorian scale for m7b5 chords. So for example in minor blues measure four, on Gm7b5 go up a minor third from G to get Bb Dorian. Then from Bb go up another minor third to get Db Melodic Minor scale over the C altered chord.

On a related Dorian note, I'm making my way through Pat Martino's Creative Force DVD; it's like watching Yoda play jazz guitar. He has a concept called Minor Conversion where he often substitutes the related minor chord for whatever chord he is playing. On 7 chords he'll think of the m7 up a fifth, so for example on F7 use Cm7. This then often results in C Dorian over F7 as a very basic guide scale. The motivation for this is to eventually have a comfortable fingering like Dorian well-know all over the fingerboard, and then utilize it in a variety of musical situations.

[RichVincent]

Funnyval:
I liked that idea. I have been working on the locrian over Dm7b5 and using the F Dorian up a third really changed things. I might have to eventually get some Pat Martino material. Alot of his ideas keep cropping up here on the forum.
And Matt, the Minor Blues scales thread is turning out to be a goldmine.Everybody is getting hyped on ideas.
Thanks
Rich

[m78w]

I'm glad people are digging the lesson. I'm even more glad that it is sparking discussion. Sometimes people tend to take lessons as dogma, but they should always be open to interpretation. Just in the replies to this thread this lesson has spawned some very interesting and helpful suggestions that weren't covered in the lesson. That's a really cool thing!

MW

[funnyval]

Matt, if you use the Ab7 in measure nine, which guide scale do you recommend?

I like the Ab7#11 scale, which is Eb Melodic Minor. When thinking in Melodic Minor, it's easy to go up a forth to catch the Melodic Minor for altered. For example, for Ab7 G7 in measures 9-10, think Eb Melodic Minor, then Ab Melodic Minor.

[m78w]

I agree, I use either altered or 4th mode melodic minor, 7#11, for every dominant chord I play, most of the time.

MW

[renema]

When playing minor tunes, a good scale to remember is the CLASSICAL MINOR SCALE. This scale is different from the ascending or descending minor scales in the sense that all the notes between the 5th and the 8ve can be used freely:

C CLASSICAL MINOR SCALE:

C D Eb F G Ab A Bb B C
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 b7 7 1

[DMatthewsBand07]

I heard something about that. I think it might've been on this website. It was in reference to a Pat Martino method of soloing over minor chords. He pretty much built himself a compostion of the Harmonic Minor, Dorian, Phrygian, and Aeolian scales. I think it was sort of similar to what your talking about.

I think it would've been

C Db D Eb F G Ab A Bb B C

something along those lines. Basically everything but the natural 3 and the flat 5. It was pretty cool. Doesn't really appeal to my general mindset or approach to improv, but it's pretty cool to play with if you think that way.

[renema]

Hi DiMatthewsBand07,

Your "Pat Martino" scale has almost all the notes of the chromatic scale and I don't see why one could not use the two remaining notes:
- b5 is a typical blue note very often used in jazz solos

- The nat 3rd could sound a bit hard on minor chords, but call it b4 and in fact it is a very modern tension that Miles Davis used often over minor chords.


The traditional jazz theory (Berklee) teaches that any melodic line in stepwise or chromatic motion between the 5th and the 8ve of a minor chord is called a LINE CLICHE. Examples:

Cm Cm(maj7) Cm7 Cm6
Cm Cm+ Cm6 Cm+

Cm Cm/Bb Cm/Ab G7

This is the idea behind the Classical Minor Scale.
But of course when you solo over any chord, you can use all the 12 notes of the chromatic scale depending on the mood of the tune.

[m78w]

The maj 3rd on a minor 7th chord is used often in a ii-V context when the player is eluding to the V7 chord.

For example, Dm7 the raised third is F#, which is the "bebop" note over a G7, the V chord. So if you played G F# F E over a Dm7 chord, you are just focusing your line on the V7, G7, chord. This is a common bebop technique though I would definately avoid sitting on it, the only guy I've ever heard get away with is Michael Brecker and who could argue with anything he plays!

MW

[DMatthewsBand07]

Haha. Yup. You know how Pat Martino is. Very "academic", if you will. First off I was mistaken on the construction of the scale. There's no b9 but there is the b5. My mistake. Still that doesn't invalidate the point you were making. It's really just a fancy Pat Martino way of saying that he likes using these tensions over minor chords. I don't like to think of improvisation that way. I prefer to look at chords or arpeggios and add extensions and alter chord tones from there rather than lumping them into one monster scale and trying to memorize it all over the place. Anyway, here is the link to the discussion that I found it on...

Minor Conversions

from what I can gather, he puts these together in a scale so that it's easier to use them over chords of different qualities. Again, I don't really use this approach so you're probably better off checking out the above thread and reading what they have to say.

As for the line cliche idea. I really love the way that line cliche can sound. In a Sentimental Mood, Funny Valentine. Charlie Parker would use that in a lot of his improvised minor lines. It can sound pretty cool in a ii-V-I so if you use that line cliche in an improv you can get an interesting effect because it stops on that 6, which is also the 3 of the following dominant chord. The exact same line over the dominant chord. In this case it'll start on the 5 and end on the 3 of the dominant chord which then becomes the 7 of your I chord. Really cool idea.

[DMatthewsBand07]

O sorry that was in response to renema's last post.

Now I follow on the natural 3. That makes sense. Joe Pass does that a lot too doesn't he?

[m78w]

Yeah Joe would constantly play the V7 chord and ignore the iim7 chord when blowing and comping. A lot of times he would also make the ii chord a II7 chord, like a V7/V7, which turned the progression into a mini cycle of fifths.

MW

[renema]

I doubt if Joe Pass would insist on that maj 3rd over a minor chord; probably he would play it very quickly and resolve it to the nearest neighboor You won't find it in a Hollywood movie either...

But someone like Charles Mingus probably would enjoy it. When I was a student, I could never understand how he could add a Maj7 to a dominant seventh chord. He would play a voicing like:
G7= G F B F#

If you hear it, you play it...

[m78w]

I don't think Joe would hold on the maj 3rd, but as a passing note it was one of his faves. The Mingus voicing was also used by Oscar Peterson, only he would use both the minor and maj 7th like so.

G7 = G B D F F#

MW

[Sailor]

Hi renema - is the second example of a line cliche supposed to read Cm, Cm+,
Cm6, Cm7?? Lime like Cry Me A River??

Sailor

[Sailor]

Hey Matt - wouldn't the F# make the Dm a D7 which is V of G7, and the new leading tone??

Sailor

[m78w]

The F# could be thought of as the leading tone of G7 if you held it, which would give it an accent. If it's passing it makes it sound chromatic more than a chord tone.

Lenny Breau used this method all the time, especially when playing trio, duo or solo. He would freely go between a iim7 and a II7 chord depending on the line he wanted to play. So the first time through the tune it could be Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, then the second time it could be D7-G7-Cmaj7.

It's a great technique, but we need to be careful when using it alongside a pianist as it might clash with their voicings.

MW

[Sailor]

Thanks matt - I just thought you always wanted to have the leading tone when temporarily tonicizing a new chord. Didn't you say that they do the same thing with rhythm changes, sometimes a minor ii, sometimes a II7?? (leading to V).

Sailor

[m78w]

That's right, a iim7 chord gives it a subdominant sound and the II7 gives it a secondary dominant sound. It all depends on the situation. If you are blowing or comping it's kind of up to you which you want to use, but in a chord melody or behind a singer you should make sure the melody doesn't clash with the chord.

Though! If you play D7 instead of Dm7 and the melody is the m3rd, F, it becomes a D7#9 chord which is a very jazzy sound for a dominant chord.

MW

[Sailor]

So you're saying that this isn't really a clash here; it's a different chord that actually sounds pretty good??

Can you find my accompanying question and respond if you have time?

LOVE this thread

Sailor

[m78w]

Yep that's right, sorry I don't know which accompanying question you mean, can you ask it again and I'll do my best to answer it for you.

MW

[Sailor]

Sorry to have to re-ask in this thread but my question about accompanying got some vague responses.

I'm going to be playing with a vocalist, standards, 30s and 40s. I don't really know what to do to extend the songs or fill in during instrumental breaks.
I didn't want to just play chord melody which seems like a lot of the same thing, or just do a verse comp or something. What do you fill with, ( especially on short songs like fly me to the moon)?

Thanks Sailor

[m78w]

I usually just take a chorus or two of solo. I do chord solos, or single lines, or alternate the two. I also like to walk basslines and comp to fill up space if it doesn't seem to need a solo section.

The possibilities are endless, I would start with a few solo ideas and see how they feel to you.

MW