Retired guy wants to play jazz ... needs a plan

[Dooce]

As a young guy I started playing folk or old blues, typically fingerpicking style. Same 20 chords and 20 songs. But after retirement came, I found a renewed interest in learning jazz guitar and I found a teacher, who has me using the book, "Progressive Jazz Guitar for Beginners" (published by Koala Music, written by Steve Sutton and Gary Turner.)

Any thoughts about it?

I really need a method ... something that will give me some discipline and steady progress, instead of creating my own chord charts just so I can play along with Real Book backing tracks.

Here's what I love: the jazz standards, just playing the chords with backing tracks.
Here's what I hate: having to look up the chords all the time, or making my own chordal notation for each song.

I love this forum, and hope there's someone out there that can point me in a useful direction. In fact, any ideas that will get me unstuck would be fantastic!

[Stackabones]

Just stick to the method your teacher is using with you right now. I haven't used that book and I'm not familar with it, but trust your teacher's instincts about what you need and do your homework.

So those folk and blues tunes have 20 chords?! That's more than a bunch of jazz tunes.

[docbop]

You don't learn Jazz overnight learning lots chords is about learning some basic voiceings, but then learning how to make your own voiceings of modifying voiceings to suit the need. Then there's voice leading and chords sub's all basic stuff. I'd say be patient the journey is the reward.


As they say play Rock you learn 3 chords and play for 10,000 people. With Jazz you learn 10,000 chords and play for 3 people.

[hurricanebob]

Originally Posted by Dooce

Here's what I love: the jazz standards, just playing the chords with backing tracks.
Here's what I hate: having to look up the chords all the time, or making my own chordal notation for each song.

And that, my friend, is the rub.

You like playing chords; you don't like looking them up. Me neither! Especially when I look it up more than once! But...stick with it. You will find that, slowly and over time, you'll learn the position of a D7-9, and you won't have to look it up forever. And you'll learn it in different positions.

It just takes time, and there's no getting around it.

As you progress, you'll discover patterns--certain chords will usually lead to other chords, and it will feel less foreign. In the meantime, stick with your teacher, but don't shy away from looking up chords, and making little chord charts above the staff in the Real Book.

You just gotta learn those chords! But you will, I promise.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by hurricanebob

And that, my friend, is the rub.

You like playing chords; you don't like looking them up. Me neither! Especially when I look it up more than once! But...stick with it. You will find that, slowly and over time, you'll learn the position of a D7-9, and you won't have to look it up forever. And you'll learn it in different positions.

It just takes time, and there's no getting around it.

As you progress, you'll discover patterns--certain chords will usually lead to other chords, and it will feel less foreign. In the meantime, stick with your teacher, but don't shy away from looking up chords, and making little chord charts above the staff in the Real Book.

You just gotta learn those chords! But you will, I promise.

Learn the theory behind making chords (nothing difficult really) and get the notes on the fretboard down pat, and you'll never have to look up a chord again.

[Dooce]

Thanks for your tips and help, everyone. Your advice seems right on target for what I need to do. After some more thinking about it, here's how I intend to approach my study of jazz guitar:

1. Go completely through the Progressive Jazz Guitar for Beginners book. Do not skip lessons. Keep NOTES in a separate notepad.
· As I proceed, make a summary sheet of each of the chords I've learned
· For each lesson or part of a lesson, learn (1) the chord, (2) the arpeggio from the 6th through the 1st string, and the names of the notes.
· Seek to understand the harmonic principles behind each chord; e.g., what makes an EMaj5 a fifth, instead of just a third? What causes a flatted 9th? etc.
· Practice each chord and chord change until it is easy and silky smooth.

2. Find Real Book songs that use the chords, and learn several songs (using Band in a Box or Impro-Visor backing tracks when ready).
· Learn the chords to one song thoroughly.
· If I encounter chords that I haven't learned in the Progressive book (e.g., EbMaj5b), then work the fingering out myself -- play the EbMaj then figure out the fingering to make a 5b (flatted 5th).
· Then for that song, practice the arpeggios to the Band in a Box backing track. Play with this until it starts to sound a bit like I'm improvising to the chord changes.
· Do the same for another song. Etc.
· Do NOT use the chord fingering or structure from the Band in a Box backing track; stick with the chords in the Real Book.

3. Turn then to the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar book, starting with lesson 1.
· PRACTICE and MEMORIZE the lesson 1 chords, in combination with the lessons found at the site, http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...zz-guitar.html
· Learn the Root 6 (low E string) and Root 5 (low A string) notes and which is the root note for each chord.
· Proceed through the lessons as written, practicing no less than an hour a day.
· When I have sufficient chord knowledge and understanding, use Real Book songs as above in #2.

[Drumbler]

I'm a little confused?

You are taking jazz lessons from a teacher. Do you like the teacher?

I'm not clear on why you are going to go off on a tangent into these other things?

Have you discussed this with your teacher?

Are you still going to take jazz lessons from this teacher?

[Gramps]

Don't be afraid to change your plan as needed. That is a pretty full plate.

I find that I reach a point of diminishing returns (platue) so I change what I'm concentrating on and come back to it later. When I come back to the original task I find that I've digested it and am ready to go further.

We all learn differently though. Just be flexible.

[oldane]

As others have said, be patient and go with your teacher. It takes some time. Much pratice is tedious but necessary.

As for the chords - well, if you don't know how to play them, you have to look them up, right? But you can also construct them yourself, when you have learned the principles of harmony. The guitar is such a wonderful modular instrument. The fingerings for say a dominant Ab7 chord is the same as the fingerings for the other 11 dominant chords, they are just moved up and down the fretboard. Thanks to this, as opposed to wind players and pianists, we guitarists don't really have "easy" and "difficult" keys. The bridge of "Cheerokee" was a nightmare for a lot of older wind players, and the late 1930s Basie recording of it simply omitted the bridge. But not so for guitarists, since it is in fact just a simple II-V-I progression played four times, each a whole step under the previous.

Extensions to dominant chords usually can be added or left out as is appropiate for the music played. Tonic triads, tonic 6 and major 7 chords are ususally freely interchangable. In addidton many chord sequences are repeated as building blocks in countless tunes. The II-V-I cadenca is the archetypical example. So once you grasp the PRINCIPLES behind it all - the building blocks - it becomes easier.

If you dont read music, do learn it. Tablature is OK for guitarists, but music notation is the universally accepted language for all musicians independent of instruments and genres. It took me forty years before I sat down and learned it. I am a very slow reader - no sight reading here - but I do read, and it helps me memorize tunes to see them graphically on paper. I really wish my parents had accepted the piano and piano lessons my grandma would have given me when I was a child, as I would have learned music notation while it was still easy to learn new things. But my mother thought there was enough "noise" from the radio. Oh well...

For me, the following books has helped me a lot:

Amazon.com: The Jazz Theory Book (9781883217044): Mark Levine: Books

Amazon.com: Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians (Jazz Instruction) (9780634086786): Robert Rawlins, Nor Eddine Bahha: Books

Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): JOHNSON: Books

[wordsmith]

Hi....welcome!

Have you checked the lessons on this site? Click the "lessons" link above the green bar at the top of the page, on the left.

Plenty there to keep you amused.

Good luck.........patience is the key. Do something every day, and you will progress.

[fep]

Congratulations on your retirement.

Retirement: Being able to do what you want, when you want.

Band in a Box can add a lot of fun to your practice.

Your practice regimine will evolve over time. A big part of proper practice is constantly evaluating what you need to practice.

Here is something regarding practice and learning:

Bill Thrasher - Intro info to Jazz Guitar lessons Circa 1980

[oldane]

Originally Posted by fep

Band in a Box can add a lot of fun to your practice.

Comletely agree. And if you have Band-in-a-Box, you can download this:

RealBook - Phillips Music

which is B-i-a-B files with about 500 jazz standard tunes. B-i-a-B can transpose them to all keys with a keystroke, change the tempo, type of arrangement etc. The program can also write out lead sheets and other notation (piano, bass, drums) for you. You can play along with the stock arrangements. They sound somewhat synthetic and rigid, and it's not like playing with a real band, but anyway it's a great way to learn songs and to practice keeping time and much more fun than plying with a metronome.

I use B-i-a-B a lot. Computer speakers are often not loud enough, so sometimes I save the B-i-a-B files as ordinary sound files and replay them via the stereo in our living room. I do use headphones too, but like speakers much more.

You may want to get a small digital recorder which can do sound-on sound (like Korg SR1 SOS, Boss Micro BR - but there may be others), so you can record yourself along with "the band". This usually makes it clear (often painfully clear!), what you need to practice. Apart for the input jack for a guitar cable and headphone/line output, these recorders have a built in microphone for acoustic playing, which is adequate for practice.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Originally Posted by fep

Here is something regarding practice and learning:

Bill Thrasher - Intro info to Jazz Guitar lessons Circa 1980

Nice, fep. I totally agree with his philosophy.

[ChrisDowning]

As a fulltime guitar teacher AND 65 years old, I can tell everyone that there are plenty of poor teachers out there who will take your money and have you playing loads of chords and difficult stuff because they don't really know how to teach. It takes a long time to learn to teach well - you've probably come across the 10,000 hours observation on how long it takes to get good at pretty much anything. BTW it will take between 1500 hours and 2000 hours to go from Grade 0 to Grade 8 - so a high level of proficiency is possible - 2 hours a day for about 2 years.

Find a teacher who is honest enough to tell you how he's going to teach you from 0 to 8 (you don't have to do exams but it's a good starting point to some sort of schedule of study.) Not many good teachers can rattle off 3 hours of good standards in public because they are spending most of their time teaching - which means good playing isn't always a good guide to finding a good teacher. But you will need a teacher and mentor to progress as efficiently as you can.

There are a lot of good books and materials out there that you could use as a backbone to your studies - Jody Fisher's jazz series of 4 books is a good thorough base. Try Fred Sokolow's jazz books and DVDs to build a beginner's repetoire - you need to start applying what you lean to songs, otherwise it all feels pretty pointless. Get a recording device like a Roland R-05 to create some backing tracks and practice comping and soloing at you own speed.

[TruthHertz]

Can you find a partner to play tunes with? You may spend a few sessions stumbling through some pieces, but if you both have patience and a desire to get better, the actual process of playing with someone else can help you see what you need to do now. Nothing like tripping up over something you didn't even see for showing you what you can (and can't) do.
Don't put it off. Have your teacher put out the word to his students that you're looking for a study partner.

If you sit down with someone, take turns on a 4 bar passage alternating chords and melody, you're going to have fun, each time 'round will get better, you're going to learn your chords, you're going to see the opportunity to be adventurous and you'll have incentive to work on your own too.
You start with a piece like Autumn Leaves, just take the first phrase and play it over and over. Reverse your roles, introduce space, introduce a tension one note at a time, start your phrase on a different note...

Don't be afraid to fall flat. Have fun
David

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Learn the theory behind making chords (nothing difficult really) and get the notes on the fretboard down pat, and you'll never have to look up a chord again.

This is spot on. When you have the right materials you can build any style house that you want.

[ChrisDowning]

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

This is spot on. When you have the right materials you can build any style house that you want.

Basically, at the start forget about trying to hit every chord in every modification - especially two to the bar. Break the chords down to their basics - all the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths are built on Dom 7ths - so play a Dom 7th. For all the Maj 7ths you can just use a staright major chord. A minor is a moinor and a major a major, ignore the Augs, Dims - just play a major for the Aug and a minor for the Dim.

At this stage we'll end up with something a bit cheesy but simple. Later you can start building the chords as you get to play more stuff. Adding the uppers like 9ths, 11ths and 13ths makes the chords sound better, more spicy and interesting. This is where the Mickey Baker book might help you - just learn a couple of forms for each chord and move them up and down the fretboard.

The Hal Leonard book on chord tone soloing will help you start on how to solo around the chords rather than thinking about scale based soloing (like rock guitarists do with a pentatonic scale). You'll actually learn more about soloing, struggling with chord shapes and chord tones than learning someone else's solo off the record.

[patskywriter]

i hope that, whatever you choose to do, you remember to have fun. if you're not enjoying the process and are hoping to achieve nirvana after reaching a certain point, you run the risk of never getting there. (that goes for all of us, but especially us older guitarslingers.)

[Dookychase]

For play along tracks, take a look at Hal Leonard's Jazz Guitar Play Along Series.
The book has about 10 songs and a cd. Each song is played with an instrument playing the melody once through, then you get to play it, then the other instrument plays it to the end.

The second track is just a backing track. You play the melody once through, then improvise the next time through, then the melody to the end. Or whatever you want.

[jokron]

I have loads of books, have visited zillions of websites to find the right method, scedule and whatever that could help me ... and I've come to the conclusion that the best way to learn is by playing tunes, playing tunes and playing tunes.

Pick a tune from a real book, learn the chords, the head and try to play solo based on chord arpeggios, then based on variations of the melody and finally...just play what comes out of your mind. Then pick another song and repeat the steps...

When you have played through 20 different songs that way you have delevoped more than reading a bunch of method books. And if you like to know more about the theory, you have thousands of threads in this forum that can learn you more than you can handle.

And for backing tracks, youtube.com is overcrowded of them:

jazz backing track - YouTube

You've got to chew it bit by bit, and have fun all the way...

Start with songs you like...or some with not so many chords like Autumn Leaves or Summertime.

And...learn at least one new thing every time you play...

Playing through books gets you very good att ... playing what books tells you to play. Playing songs gets you playing music that you like and by time you're improvising what you hear in your heart and mind, not what you know from books and memorized in your brain.

And remember, playing 30 min a day develops your skill more than three hours every sunday!!! It takes time so be patient!

Good Luck

Jokron