using the jazz minor scale

[richb2]

I have been going through Emily Remler's lessons. She goes into detail about playing the jazz minor, either a perfect 5th above the chord or a b2 above the chord (depending on if the chord is resolving). Do any of you use this method? Is is used sparingly or heavily?

[musicjohnny]

Great question.

I've just recently started really utilizing this scale and all of it's corresponding modes, and I'm trying to find different ways to use it.
Any advice appreciated.

[richb2]

What do you mean by corresponding modes? different grips of it?

[musicjohnny]

The Jazz melodic minor has different modes, similar to how the Major scale also has modes. Check it out in Bb Mel minor.

Bb Melodic minor
Bb minMaj7

C Dorian b2
C min 7

Db Lydian Aug.
Db Maj7#5

Eb Lydian b7 (Lydian Dom.)
Eb7

F Mixolydian b6 Dom7
F7

G Locrian #2
G min7b5

A Super Locrian
Amin7b5

Those are the modes and chords of the scale.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by richb2

I have been going through Emily Remler's lessons. She goes into detail about playing the jazz minor, either a perfect 5th above the chord or a b2 above the chord (depending on if the chord is resolving). Do any of you use this method? Is is used sparingly or heavily?

1. The perfect 5th above is the same as taking the usual dominant scale (the mixolydian) and raising the fourth:

Over G7: G A B C# D E F G

2. The b2 above is the altered scale. I think of it as starting with the chords root&third&seventh and adding the b5, #5, b9, #9 altered tones:

Over G7: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

I use them both a lot, but I don't use that "chord is resolving" criteria. The first sounds like a "modern G7" to me and the second sounds like a G7 with extra tension, although I guess extra tension means it wants to resolve.

[cosmic gumbo]

I don't know how relevant this is to your question, but it's helped people understand an important application for the jazz minor (melodic minor) scale.

Mr 335 TV

[merseybeat]

Hi

Jazz minor? Well IMO this is one powerful MF. Not only just just the uses that Big Daddy LH suggests but there are also 3 Augmented chord in here! A simple and beautifully effective use is to use these augmented arps within the jazz minor and you will instantly sound like a jazzer!

Altered scale example.

For example a ii V I in Cmaj you can start by playing G aug arp over the V (Galt) chord), also (G aug = B aug=Eb aug). To me this was a very easy way to get the sound of the Jazz minor!

Remember also there are also another three JM modes you can play over the V chord

Up a 5th (D JM over Galt - normally non resolving but hey there is no spoon!)

Down a whole tone (My favorite!) (F JM over Galt)

Up a 4th (C JM over Galt)

Augmented arpeggios are a cool sounding tool to have!

Regards

Eddie

[lkmuller]

I've been using it ever since I watched her video back when it was only on VHS. I don't use it exclusively though, when resolving back from a V to a I or even a III to a VI dominant I also use either a harmonic minor or a diminished, each has a different sound and ergo, feel to it.

So sad that she passed when she did, she was really starting to come into her own. Believe it or not, I have a pair of her snakeskin boots in my music room.

[merseybeat]

Cool! and funny thing is there is only one note difference linking all these scales! Its nice to have all these options available! Also JM and HM - they both contain the afore mentioned Aug arps (G altered scale and G Phrygian Major). Try it and your Joe Passing

Eddie

[richb2]

Originally Posted by lkmuller

I've been using it ever since I watched her video back when it was only on VHS. I don't use it exclusively though, when resolving back from a V to a I or even a III to a VI dominant I also use either a harmonic minor or a diminished, each has a different sound and ergo, feel to it.

So sad that she passed when she did, she was really starting to come into her own. Believe it or not, I have a pair of her snakeskin boots in my music room.

What video are you talking about?

[richb2]

>>Down a whole tone (My favorite!) (F JM over Galt)

>>Up a 4th (C JM over Galt)

She didn't talk about those two uses. She spoke about using it over dominant chords which I think she meant 7th chords? What is the Galt thing? Is that G alt?

[merseybeat]

Sorry I should have said G7 alt i.e.

G7 alt = G7b5, G7#5, G7b9, G7#9, G7b5#9, G7#5b9 etc. etc.

Don Mock has a great book "Melodic Minor Revealed" I found it an excellent resource, though be warned his examples may be a little tricky for beginner - intermediate! But hey! being forced into a little extra dexterity is a good thin isn't it? Worked for me 'eventually'.

Basically you can use 4 different modes of the JM over a particular dominant chord! each mode yields a particular color! Please believe me and work with it! The rewards of a little perseverance with this scale (and modes) is amazing! Plus you can also use it over Minor7 chords and even Major 7 chords! Someone once said on this forum - "Jazz minor, jazz minor, and jazz minor!" I agree!

Regards

Eddie

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I don't know how relevant this is to your question, but it's helped people understand an important application for the jazz minor (melodic minor) scale.

Mr 335 TV

hey thanks Gumbo, that was a good link...nice to see the theoretical put into actual playing

[derek]

Originally Posted by richb2

What video are you talking about?

Amazon.com: Emily Remler: Advanced Jazz & Latin Improvisation: Hot Licks, Arlen Roth: Musical Instruments

Yes, I have it, and yes I use it. Excellent advice, and great explaination with some lines transcribed for you with the vid. Highly recommended.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Remember also there are also another three JM modes you can play over the V chord

Up a 5th (D JM over Galt - normally non resolving but hey there is no spoon!)

Down a whole tone (My favorite!) (F JM over Galt)

Up a 4th (C JM over Galt)

Ah yes, the four minor horsemen of the Apocalicks. Over G7 we have:

D JM
Ab JM
F JM
C JM

This reminds me of another idea, if I could tug on your ear for a moment.

Start with G7 and add the b9. If you play this without the root, the result is a diminished seventh chord:

4x343x or xx3434

As we know, diminished seventh chords are so symmetrical that their inversions repeat every 3 frets:

7x676x or xx6767
etc...

If we had started with E7, Db7 or Bb7 we would have ended up with the same diminished seventh chord.

So G7, E7, Db7 and Bb7 are related in this way. I'm sure you college boys have some fancy, dessicated name for it, but I call these chords kissing cousins, because there is some relationship between them, but there is also some fooling around going on, too.

The bottom line for me is that I can take note patterns (or scales etc...) and raise or lower them multiples of a minor third (3 frets) and they still work to some extent against the original chord.

Back to the original example: those four minor scales ...

D JM
Ab JM
F JM
C JM

One doesn't fit the kissing cousin pattern -- C JM. If we were moving things up and down minor thirds, we would have ended up with B JM intead. Thinking of playing either against G7:

C JM: G A B C D Eb F G
B JM: G# A# B C# D E F# G#

The C JM is a safe bet while the B JM is an edgy choice, especially with the F#-G# notes -- no root for G7 plus that leading tone. In moments like this, I ask myself: what would Pat Martino do?

[merseybeat]

Coooooooooooooool

[SwingSwangSwung]

I tend to use it against altered dominant chords.

Bb melodic minor over A7(alt.)

[cosmic gumbo]

Bb melodic minor has the same notes in it as the A altered scale.

[richb2]

Well I got the video. There is something about the honesty of this woman. She talked about practicing with a metronome using 1/8 notes. Has anyone here done this?

[Jazzyteach65]

been using the method of altered dom scale for years now, but along with mode V of harm and dim. If you play ideas and melodies rather than these scales, then your ears will hear the altered tones the chord yields and you won't have to worry about what scale to use.

[merseybeat]

Hi JT

Totally agree! and yes I can now pick out these notes at will! But often I like to have a logical sense of movement and particular color! All of the above will give me that! To create these melodies its nice to have all of the above potential scales to select from. Each one gives me a particular 'mood' or color! (Depends how outside I am feeling). It was actually Mimi Fox who gave me the 'Augmented' ideas as I was after a particular sound and for me that finally proved to be the many available augmented arpeggio tonalities for one altered chord!
As a final note, and working through Joe Pass's Jazz licks video, Joe used them to great effect.

Eddie

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I don't know how relevant this is to your question, but it's helped people understand an important application for the jazz minor (melodic minor) scale.

So the jazz minor and the melodic minor are just different names for the same scale?

/R

[randalljazz]

melodic minor has raised 6 and 7 ascending, natural 6 and 7 descending (i.e., aeolian mode). jazz minor uses only the raised 6 and 7.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Ah yes, the four minor horsemen of the Apocalicks. Over G7 we have:

D JM
Ab JM
F JM
C JM

This reminds me of another idea, if I could tug on your ear for a moment.

Start with G7 and add the b9. If you play this without the root, the result is a diminished seventh chord:

4x343x or xx3434

As we know, diminished seventh chords are so symmetrical that their inversions repeat every 3 frets:

7x676x or xx6767
etc...

If we had started with E7, Db7 or Bb7 we would have ended up with the same diminished seventh chord.

So G7, E7, Db7 and Bb7 are related in this way. I'm sure you college boys have some fancy, dessicated name for it, but I call these chords kissing cousins, because there is some relationship between them, but there is also some fooling around going on, too.

The bottom line for me is that I can take note patterns (or scales etc...) and raise or lower them multiples of a minor third (3 frets) and they still work to some extent against the original chord.

Back to the original example: those four minor scales ...

D JM
Ab JM
F JM
C JM

One doesn't fit the kissing cousin pattern -- C JM. If we were moving things up and down minor thirds, we would have ended up with B JM intead. Thinking of playing either against G7:

C JM: G A B C D Eb F G
B JM: G# A# B C# D E F# G#

The C JM is a safe bet while the B JM is an edgy choice, especially with the F#-G# notes -- no root for G7 plus that leading tone. In moments like this, I ask myself: what would Pat Martino do?

Nice idea, soooo, you sayin' that against a G7 you like to take an appropriate JM "idea" and move it around in minor thirds- except that 25% of the time it's gonna sound horrible? See, in the heat of the moment I'd find it too hard to work out which one to avoid! Any tips for that (and please don't say "yeah- use your ears!"- my ears are only good for "hey, I just played something naff" as opposed to "watch out, don't play that, it's gonna sound like a bunch of arse!"....).

btw, i like you kissing cousins, "they're related but there's some foolin' around goin' on" riot!

[Jazzyteach65]

Go to allthingsemily.com and look under lessons, she explains it pretty well under the first or second lesson.

One place that you really should use it is when the II chord becomes a 7th, and DOES not resolve down a fifth (like if we're in F, and the G7 doesn't go to C) (this happens often) like in "Girl from Ipanema" where the ii chord becomes a G7 and turns into a g minor (unresolves) or like "A-Train" where the D9#11 does to d- or like in "There Will Never be Another You" where the F7 becomes f-. So we can see these chords are all 7th, and don't move down a fifth to a new "I" chord. The available tensions to add on these chords are 9, 13 and #11.

I actually have a video lesson I'll send you

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

So the jazz minor and the melodic minor are just different names for the same scale?

What RandallJazz said in reply #23, but I'd add that a lot of people will say "Melodic minor" when they mean "Jazz minor". Context.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

I actually have a video lesson I'll send you

Hey Jazzy, I'd like a copy of that video too, please. This is one of the things I'm working on right now.

[merseybeat]

like in "Girl from Ipanema" where the ii chord becomes a G7

I find the "up a 4th" works well over these II7 scenarios - i.e. G7 - C Jazz Minor and outlining that B Augmented arp! Try it, its wow!

Eddie

Eddie

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Nice idea, soooo, you sayin' that against a G7 you like to take an appropriate JM "idea" and move it around in minor thirds- except that 25% of the time it's gonna sound horrible? See, in the heat of the moment I'd find it too hard to work out which one to avoid! Any tips for that (and please don't say "yeah- use your ears!"- my ears are only good for "hey, I just played something naff" as opposed to "watch out, don't play that, it's gonna sound like a bunch of arse!"....).

No, I'm saying that the B Jazz minor will have "tension" over G7. The thing with what I was doing is that it was a static analysis: just thinking about how the scale notes would sound against the G7 chord. Playing is a more dynamic experience: you are playing ideas that are in movement; it's okay for that to include some tension.

For example, here is a Coltrane-like turnaround pattern over G7, which is the chords Dmi, Fmi Abmi, Bmi to C. The Bmi (and its F#) fits into that idea so it sounds right.



-----------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-------4-------7-|-8-5-----
-------2-------5-|---3-4---4-6-7---|-----5---
---2-3---3-5-6---|-6---------------|-------7-
-5---------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-----------------|---------

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

No, I'm saying that the B Jazz minor will have "tension" over G7. The thing with what I was doing is that it was a static analysis: just thinking about how the scale notes would sound against the G7 chord. Playing is a more dynamic experience: you are playing ideas that are in movement; it's okay for that to include some tension.

For example, here is a Coltrane-like turnaround pattern over G7, which is the chords Dmi, Fmi Abmi, Bmi to C. The Bmi (and its F#) fits into that idea so it sounds right.



-----------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-------4-------7-|-8-5-----
-------2-------5-|---3-4---4-6-7---|-----5---
---2-3---3-5-6---|-6---------------|-------7-
-5---------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-----------------|---------

I tried to straighten the bar lines a little... nice one bigdaddy! The f# seems to work because it's part of a sequential idea which gets to be most tensioned at the very end (like all good alt lines!), plus it's passing nicely to C's 5th. I don't really hear the clash against G's flat 7th, but possibly would if B mins (and it's f#) occurred earlier in the sequence.

Dmin / Fmin Abmin / Bmin C
----------------|------------------|---------
----------------|-------4-------7-|-8-5-----
------2-------5.|---3-4---4-6-7--|-----5---
-2-3---3-5-6---|-6---------------|-------7-
5---------------|------------------|---------
----------------|------------------|---------