How does one "tell a story" with improvisation?

[FattMusiek]

I'm in a small jazz ensemble at my local community college. Our instructor had a 19 year old tenor sax player come in yesterday and play for those of us who came for the optional Friday meeting to improve our playing. The kid was nuts to say the least. While playing drums, I noticed it was hard to keep the beat straight because this kid was so good at improvisation that he'd play very non-rigid phrases that told a story as the instructor noted. It's hard to explain, but I was not used to playing with someone who was able to basically play tastefully out of time.

So when it comes to jazz guitar, I find it difficult to do this. I try not to play mechanical things like the scales, modes and arpeggios that I practice, but I often lose my place in the form of the piece and can't find my way. So in this confusion I'm trying to find a note that works, but as we all know about jazz standards, key changes are not uncommon.

I've found that the mixolydian mode sounds decent throughout a ii V I progression. Is it a bad idea to think "this is a ii V I in the key of ____" and head down to that scale's root and play around there until it changes? Linking the key changes together is something I cannot yet do intuitively, and thus I cannot honestly say I can "play over changes," something I hope to eventually do well.

So in closing, improvisation and jazz go hand in hand, and there's a difference between "improvising" by using the "right notes" from whatever key the song is currently in and improvising- playing with real heart and profound depth.

Thanks for reading/helpin'.

[Tbirdjazzguitar]

Yeah ive always wondering this and thats a phrase my teacher uses often when talking about soloing. I find that people like pat metheny play more melodic and is always able to hit like somesort of a great note climax, where it just makes you go "wow" he picked the perfect notes.

[cosmic gumbo]

Ignore the bar lines when improvising.

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Ignore the bar lines when improvising.

Is it really that easy

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by gersdal

Is it really that easy

I am prepared to agree with "cosmic gumbo" here. I was also told, by someone who should know this, to play through the changes rather than in the changes.
To be more specific, start a certain phrase or scale before the chord change comes or vice versa end a phrase without changing scale to what would be proper to a certain chord.
That is if I didn't misunderstand the original question

/R

[billkath]

It's all about knowing the "source" material.
So-my way of thinking about freestyle improvising is that you MUST know the song "straight" backwards and forwards. You should be keeping the "original" of the song in one half of your brain, whilst the other side of your brain improvises around that. Now-the other people in your band should be doing the same thing-so you all know where you are in the original song. They'll be improvising as well-maybe-but all of you will have the original song in your heads/ subconscious--they don't follow your improvisation, as such, they follow the "original". They are not really anticipating what you are trying to do, as such, but hopefully you'll all be on or around the same wavelength. If you are the soloist, you'll be "leading", so hopefully they'll be aware musically on where you are going, and follow, but always within the context of the original song.

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

I am prepared to agree with "cosmic gumbo" here. I was also told, by someone who should know this, to play through the changes rather than in the changes.
To be more specific, start a certain phrase or scale before the chord change comes or vice versa end a phrase without changing scale to what would be proper to a certain chord.

Sounds like a good idea, but that is not all there is to make your solos tell a story, tho, I would say.

[Jazzyteach65]

You sould ask Jake Hanlon, he's on here. In fact go search the web for "Jake Hanlon Autumn Leaves improvisation" it's a pdf, I don't think it's on jakehanlon.com anymore.

Let me tell you a story. The once was a kid who enjoyed music and then picked up a guitar. He went to music school, years later BAM! HE WAS GREAT.

See, I just used form and structure to tell that story. I started with a simple into phrase; "let me tell you a story." Then I built upon that, ending with a punctuation and end of the story.

Musically, unless you're playing at very fast tempos, start out SIMPLE with easy, melodies, two or three note motifs, intervals, calls and responses ect. As a matter of fact, try starting the solo quoting the melody, THE MELODY IS THE THEME OF THE STORY, THE STORY IS THE TUNE, THE WAY YOU TELL IT IS YOUR INTERPRETATION of the story using your own vocab.

So the first chorus, state the melody and embe;;ish it, using chromatics, displacement ect.

The second chorus start string more complexed ideas, eight-note lines ect

The third chorus start to add more tension-use and outline some altered sounds, even some 16th note runs. Always remember to impliment parts of the origionally head/melody of the tune even if you're going nuts. Remember, YOU'RE TELLING YOUR INTERPRITATION OF SOMEONE ELSE'S STORY.

I've always hated when players start out, ESPECIALLY on ballads firing away with all these notes. Start out simple. I remember Count Basie once telling his horns "if you play everything you know in one solo and don't start out simple, you're ass is out of my band"

[Jazzyteach65]

Also listening to how other players solo on recordings is ESSENTIAL. Wes and Jim Hall are great story tellers.

Listen to how they set up lines, what devices they use; ie call-response, themes, ect.

Do they cover the entire range of the instrument? Do they interact and get other ideas from the other players? IE did they feed off the comper and mimic pne of his/her fills/rhythmic ideas? there's millions of ways and devices to telling a story, but the theme/melody is the important

[Shadow of the Sun]

Motifs, motifs, motifs.

If you want to work on telling a story while you improvise, learn to start with simple motifs and expand them through the changes, building up as you go. Probably the most distinctive piece of music of all time, Beethoven's Fifth, is based on a 4 note motif with a simple rhythm- and because that rhythm and so on appears throughout the entire piece, it feels amazingly unified and distinctive.

Learn to make a simple motif, and then modify it through the changes, developing it. It really is an amazing way to solo.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by gersdal

Sounds like a good idea, but that is not all there is to make your solos tell a story, tho, I would say.

I know that my answer was more a comment to cosmic gumbo's post than to the original thread.
That's why I wrote: "That is if I didn't misunderstand the original question"

/R

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

I know that my answer was more a comment to cosmic gumbo's post than to the original thread.
That's why I wrote: "That is if I didn't misunderstand the original question"

Ok. Thanks. You gave a good interpretation of what mumbo gumbo may have intended to say.

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

You sould ask Jake Hanlon, he's on here. In fact go search the web for "Jake Hanlon Autumn Leaves improvisation" it's a pdf, I don't think it's on jakehanlon.com anymore.

Let me tell you a story. The once was a kid who enjoyed music and then picked up a guitar. He went to music school, years later BAM! HE WAS GREAT.

See, I just used form and structure to tell that story. I started with a simple into phrase; "let me tell you a story." Then I built upon that, ending with a punctuation and end of the story.

Musically, unless you're playing at very fast tempos, start out SIMPLE with easy, melodies, two or three note motifs, intervals, calls and responses ect. As a matter of fact, try starting the solo quoting the melody, THE MELODY IS THE THEME OF THE STORY, THE STORY IS THE TUNE, THE WAY YOU TELL IT IS YOUR INTERPRETATION of the story using your own vocab.

So the first chorus, state the melody and embe;;ish it, using chromatics, displacement ect.

The second chorus start string more complexed ideas, eight-note lines ect

The third chorus start to add more tension-use and outline some altered sounds, even some 16th note runs. Always remember to impliment parts of the origionally head/melody of the tune even if you're going nuts. Remember, YOU'RE TELLING YOUR INTERPRITATION OF SOMEONE ELSE'S STORY.

I've always hated when players start out, ESPECIALLY on ballads firing away with all these notes. Start out simple. I remember Count Basie once telling his horns "if you play everything you know in one solo and don't start out simple, you're ass is out of my band"

Great story. I liked this way of thinking. Thanks a lot.

The jake hanlon thing is still at freejazzinstitute.com, more specifically Music Theory & Analysis - Improvisational Study: "Autumn Leaves" - submitted by Jake Hanlon

[derek]

Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65

You sould ask Jake Hanlon, he's on here. In fact go search the web for "Jake Hanlon Autumn Leaves improvisation" it's a pdf, I don't think it's on jakehanlon.com anymore.

Let me tell you a story. The once was a kid who enjoyed music and then picked up a guitar. He went to music school, years later BAM! HE WAS GREAT.

See, I just used form and structure to tell that story. I started with a simple into phrase; "let me tell you a story." Then I built upon that, ending with a punctuation and end of the story.

Musically, unless you're playing at very fast tempos, start out SIMPLE with easy, melodies, two or three note motifs, intervals, calls and responses ect. As a matter of fact, try starting the solo quoting the melody, THE MELODY IS THE THEME OF THE STORY, THE STORY IS THE TUNE, THE WAY YOU TELL IT IS YOUR INTERPRETATION of the story using your own vocab.

So the first chorus, state the melody and embe;;ish it, using chromatics, displacement ect.

The second chorus start string more complexed ideas, eight-note lines ect

The third chorus start to add more tension-use and outline some altered sounds, even some 16th note runs. Always remember to impliment parts of the origionally head/melody of the tune even if you're going nuts. Remember, YOU'RE TELLING YOUR INTERPRITATION OF SOMEONE ELSE'S STORY.

I've always hated when players start out, ESPECIALLY on ballads firing away with all these notes. Start out simple. I remember Count Basie once telling his horns "if you play everything you know in one solo and don't start out simple, you're ass is out of my band"

I think this answers it best for me. I also think it is the most accessible way to play. Most of us just wanna blow, but what does that communicate?

I saw Pat Metheny at a master class this summer, and one of the things he said was, "Story telling on guitar is taking an idea and continually developing it. It is a rare commodity. There are lots of great players, but not many story tellers. If you have a good idea, it should have everything you need."

[Jazzyteach65]

Also consider the following: when we have conversations with each other, we may start our phrase/paragraph/solo and address the SAME exact subject our friend just said by saying the same thing: Example:

Joe Blow:The weather today was insane
Jon Doe:The weather was insane, and it made me stay indoors.

See, Joe brought up the topic or phrase, Jon repeated that phrase and added to it, much like a pianist would finish his solo with a line and a horn player would start his solo with the same line, but vary it or add on to it.

Also, as in speech and story-telling, sometimes the end of paragraphs or phrases set up the next paragraph or phrase, example:

"Bill went to music school becuase he loved music so much. He always had music around him gorwing up.

His mother was a pianist and his father, a sitarist, constantly played around the house

See, I set up my last phrase by implying it with the first one.

Also keep in mind that when telling a story, I tend to think of fancy licks or ideas as big words, use them to get the message across, not to show off. Dennis Miller is a prime example, he uses huge vernacular just to show off, and the general public doesn't understand what the hell he is talking about. Your playing should be communicative and explanitive.

JUST MY OPINION

See,

[lkmuller]

Question-Answer. Ask a question with a phrase and answer it withe next phrase. As you learn to do that, you can get even more involved; ask a series of questions with phrases and answer them with another phrase. Question-Answer. Tension-Release. That's how it was explained to me 45 years ago and really, it works for me.

[larry graves]

The thing is, we're ripping off somebody else's story[song] to create a new story through improvisation [extemporisation].If we learn the original [story] inside out, by rights we should be able to create new stories-
infinitum. A famous jazz musician [forgoten his name] in an interview said
that he only knew six tunes, but improvised them so much,they told a different story every time..LG.

[derek]

Originally Posted by lkmuller

Question-Answer. Ask a question with a phrase and answer it withe next phrase. As you learn to do that, you can get even more involved; ask a series of questions with phrases and answer them with another phrase. Question-Answer. Tension-Release. That's how it was explained to me 45 years ago and really, it works for me.

In blues it is referrred to as Call and Response. I was working with an older student (75) last night, and he is really into older blues. We listened to a recording of Boom Boom by John Lee Hooker. Very simple call and response used throughout the tune. It was pretty easy for us to transcribe the two licks that are repeated and slightly modified.

He changed the ending note on each lick to reflect the current chord change, and then replaced one lick with the vocal call, and used one lick to be the response. The simplicity really struck me, just 2 licks, but how musical it is. I then began to think of jazz tunes where this gets used. Simple but so effective.

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by derek

In blues it is referrred to as Call and Response. I was working with an older student (75) last night, and he is really into older blues. We listened to a recording of Boom Boom by John Lee Hooker. Very simple call and response used throughout the tune. It was pretty easy for us to transcribe the two licks that are repeated and slightly modified.

He changed the ending note on each lick to reflect the current chord change, and then replaced one lick with the vocal call, and used one lick to be the response. The simplicity really struck me, just 2 licks, but how musical it is. I then began to think of jazz tunes where this gets used. Simple but so effective.

Oh yeah! JLH - now THAT's the blues. One of my favorites of his is "Serves you right to suffer." A dark, mysterious, and brooding blues with some ultracool licks.

[Gramps]

Think in three parts:
1. Intro. The original premis (motif). Establish the theme of your solo in a simple way.
2. Body. Take the original theme and elaborate on it. State it over different chords or make it more complex. Build the energy by applying different harmonic concepts to the theme or with more rthymic energy.
3. Summary. Rap up the story to fit into the next section of the song. If the next part of the song is at a higher energy level build your solo to fit it. If the song goes to a lower energy level bring your solo down to a point where the transition is smooth.

Good luck.

[Jazzyteach65]

Listen to this man tell his story. He seems to be getting the message across just fine!
YouTube - Jimmy Raney in Nashville, Another You

[qsblues]

The one question that nobody has asked so far is:
How well do you know your jazz theory?

You can tell a story without knowing the language, and you have to know how to communicate in that language.

If you don't know your theory, you can't even CREATE a motif, let alone sequence it melodically through changes.

It's good advice to play through the changes rather than within or over them, but you have to know how to do it first. It's like driving blind, which it sounds like what you're doing now.

There is no short cut to being a good musician. There are no quick fixes to improvisation. You MUST know your theory, you MUST know your scales COLD. You MUST know the tune, and you MUST know the mechanics of how to execute what you're hearing in your head, and translate it to the mechanics of the guitar. There is no way around this.

Second, nobody knows what the sax player you'd mentioned knows. He can be gifted with perfect pitch, been playing since he was 2, or who knows what? He also could have been playing total B.S., and blowing smoke. He also could have been playing a tune that he's been working on for the past 5 years. Who knows? Sax is a relatively easy instrument to play, when compared to the guitar anyway ... the guitar as 5 middle C's. How many does the sax have? One. Advantage goes to the sax.

Know your theory, and you will be able to do the same. Phrasing ... well ... that's a topic for another day ... Good luck!

[Gramps]

"If you don't know your theory, you can't even CREATE a motif,....."

I don't agree with this. In my family, music was a daily part of life. There was always music happening solo and group. We learned it all by ear. As my musical path progressed and I played/talked music with more people I felt it important to look into theory and found that I was doing a lot of what was in the books by ear. LOL. My younger brother can play amazing chord melodies all night long and doesn't know the name of any chords or notes.

This isn't to say that theory isn't important for learning new concepts and applying them to your playing but it isn't essential.

Use all the tools available but your ears are the most important.

[qsblues]

Well, Gramps, it's just my opinion. I grew up in a musical family as well. Nobody taught me how to play guitar ... I've learned by ear as well. And, I've also found out that most of the things I was playing was in the books, too. I've been playing for over 35 years, and when I got to school for music, I was ahead of the curve, because I'd been playing for so long. It's much easier for people today to learn how to play, since there's so much available online and whatnot. I had to do it the hard way by wearing out LP's and 45's.

If had the tools available then that I do now, I would be far more advanced. But I had the blessing of a music scholarship. Not many people have that.

If one is equipped with the necessary tools to become a proficient jazz musician, then they already have a jump on the competition. Sure, a certain motif that one comes up with may SOUND good ... but within the context of live performance, it may not work, unless one knows what they're doing. One has to be able to adapt to what others in the band are doing at any given moment. A major may change to a minor in any given moment. If one KNOWS what to do in any situation, no matter what, then knowing theory is key to that adaptation.

I've created motifs that I thought were killer. Only to find out that ... when playing live with a band, they didn't work, because I've become "mechanized" to that particular pattern. I couldn't adapt. This was when I was much younger, and still working out my own particular style of playing.

Once I got the theory under my belt, my ears were trained to hear the subtle differences in things, and I could then adapt on the spot, because I spent the thousands of hours training my ears and my hands to adapt.

Guitarists in particular, are used to patterns and shapes. This is why most guitarists are not particularly good at improvisation. First, learn the rules, then break them. Charlie Parker said it, and I've lived by it ever since.

We're both coming from the same place, but approaching the destination from different roads, that's all. I say that theory IS essential to learn how to master your instrument, and you say that it's not, and to trust your ears. If your ears are trained to hear what's coming around the bend, then theory can pull your ass out of the fire.

Peace

Q

[Jazzyteach65]

True, but separate the ear from theory. One CAN in fact learn the language aurally. Just like people can learn to speak, but still be illiterate. The language they're speaking is in books.

Take Django-you CANNOT tell me he wasn't good with ideas and mitfs, yet he was illiterate altogether. He didn't even know Key names

Originally Posted by qsblues

Well, Gramps, it's just my opinion. I grew up in a musical family as well. Nobody taught me how to play guitar ... I've learned by ear as well. And, I've also found out that most of the things I was playing was in the books, too. I've been playing for over 35 years, and when I got to school for music, I was ahead of the curve, because I'd been playing for so long. It's much easier for people today to learn how to play, since there's so much available online and whatnot. I had to do it the hard way by wearing out LP's and 45's.

If had the tools available then that I do now, I would be far more advanced. But I had the blessing of a music scholarship. Not many people have that.

If one is equipped with the necessary tools to become a proficient jazz musician, then they already have a jump on the competition. Sure, a certain motif that one comes up with may SOUND good ... but within the context of live performance, it may not work, unless one knows what they're doing. One has to be able to adapt to what others in the band are doing at any given moment. A major may change to a minor in any given moment. If one KNOWS what to do in any situation, no matter what, then knowing theory is key to that adaptation.

I've created motifs that I thought were killer. Only to find out that ... when playing live with a band, they didn't work, because I've become "mechanized" to that particular pattern. I couldn't adapt. This was when I was much younger, and still working out my own particular style of playing.

Once I got the theory under my belt, my ears were trained to hear the subtle differences in things, and I could then adapt on the spot, because I spent the thousands of hours training my ears and my hands to adapt.

Guitarists in particular, are used to patterns and shapes. This is why most guitarists are not particularly good at improvisation. First, learn the rules, then break them. Charlie Parker said it, and I've lived by it ever since.

We're both coming from the same place, but approaching the destination from different roads, that's all. I say that theory IS essential to learn how to master your instrument, and you say that it's not, and to trust your ears. If your ears are trained to hear what's coming around the bend, then theory can pull your ass out of the fire.

Peace

Q

[Gramps]

I'm not into the book learning vs playing by ear argument. You'll progress further by using all the tools available to you.

Great motifs can be created without knowing theory and by those who know theory. Lame motifs can be created by people without knowing theory and by those who know theory.

[qsblues]

Originally Posted by Gramps

I'm not into the book learning vs playing by ear argument. You'll progress further by using all the tools available to you.

Great motifs can be created without knowing theory and by those who know theory. Lame motifs can be created by people without knowing theory and by those who know theory.

Word!

Django, Wes, Charlie Christian and all the others are the beacons which we need to follow!

I hope that everyone trips the wire betwixt the means of standard of creation!

[bluesman39]

You need to learn your changes, but there are no "wrong" notes. Key centers can get boring w/ noodling, but only if you use them that way. Meditate for a clear mind and energy into your playing. Listen to the group, esp. rhythm section. Play what you feel. Oh, and keep it simple!! Less is more, look at Miles.

[JoeHeider]

A cool thing my professor has brought up in masterclass before is taking the melody and circling important notes that are in the melody, notes that are chord tones or consonant extensions. whether you start focusing on these notes or end you solo focused on these notes its a pretty solid concept to try and apply to try and get that less is more approach.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Joe, that seems a lot like Ed Byrne's Linear Jazz Improvisation approach.