Wes' imaginary subs/lyricism

[Jazzyteach65]

So I recently went back to listening to Wes' solo on "Days of Wine," and started to analyze it. I started noticing things a friend told me, that in live situations, Wes solod over substitutions and changes that weren;t in the tune. I got a transcription and began to analyze his solo on "Days" and found he does this:

he plays off the d-/F maj 6 arps all over g-C7

he plays F- over Bb-Eb7

He plays off the F- and outlines a C7 over A7b9-g- C7

Then I pulled out an old transcription book of Wes, and noticed he uses ALOT of upper structure over chords, and even does odd things like play a b-triad over d-.

These ideas make for great lyricism, but how the hell did he get those ideas? He has this feeling as if he REALLY conveys emotion, more so than a guy like Pass. Then I was reading this interview he did with downbeat, and Wes said "Kessel plays with more feeling than Farlow." All the guys he listed have more a melodic approach, lyrical ideas rather than meaningless lines. I remember when I met him, Bob Conti told me forget about the changes and let my ears do the work.

How do you guys practice lyricism, and how do you guys put more "feeling" and emotion into your lines. I always thought the idea that you play how you feel according to that very moment isn't always true.

Do you guys use subs in your head when soling?

[derek]

I have read where people who have transcribed Wes' stuff did an analysis of what he was playing, so I have read some of what you are talking about. His lyricism is more a matter of his technique and feel imo. I think Wes would have come across that way, no matter what devices he used to improvise with.

As far as the subs go, I would say I am aware of them, but tend to think of them as part of the chord. So if over a Cmaj7, I see Amin (C6) and Emin (Cmaj9) stuff right away. If it is dominant, I see the tritone and half diminished stuff. I don't get any more sophisticated than that at this point.

I have been messing with major b6 stuff lately over the I. I also have been trying to incorporate some of the stuff from Garrison Fewell's book, and the upper extension stuff. Slow going for me.

[Jazzyteach65]

hE EVEN PLAYS an Eb Maj 7 over the Eb#11

I've noticed he does ALOT of descending chromatics and triones.

For the upper structure of minor, or visualization, what do you think/hear when you come across minor, Derek?

[markerhodes]

A fascinating thread. I'm now working through Pohlert's "Basic Mediantic / Blues Mediantic" approach to improv and the use of subs mentioned above sounds like what he is talking about. (Mind you, he claims that what he teaches in that book is what jazz players through the '50s actually *did* when improvising, which is not the same thing most teachers *call* what they are doing.) Minor lines / shapes lay out well on the guitar and Pohlert shows how to play them over all kinds of chord sequences. Fascinating stuff, though I'm still reading it and not prepared to explain it more fully.

[cosmic gumbo]

Wes played by ear, so he never analyzed what he did beyond "does it sound good?"

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Wes played by ear, so he never analyzed what he did beyond "does it sound good?"

I suspect he gave a lot of thought to the various ways a particular line might be fingered on the guitar! He used minor 7 lines over all sorts of chords in part, I suspect, because they are convenient to play on the guitar. Wes spoke in interviews about the hard work that went into developing his technique and I suspect that was no small part of it.

[TommyD]

I for one, find it impossible to anticipate what I'm going to play by thinking "What scale fits over this chord?" while I'm playing, and then altering my solo to fit. I'm not that smart, and I can't think that fast. When people say that Wes "played by ear", that's not a put-down. It probably means that he couldn't pick up a Tarrega guitar arrangement and play it. Most of us can't.
The approach that's worked best for me over the years is to sit and strum the chords of a tune at a manageable tempo - either with pick, thumb or fingers, and sing or hum the melody.
Take "Lover Man". Nice simple, but striking chord progression, and just full of possibilities. I strummed it so long that I feel it in my bones! The chords are so familiar that I can't help playing the arpeggios when I solo on it. Last night, I tried playing it at a jump tempo - brand new tune, and more bluesy!
I've found that that's the only really successful approach for me. If I'm sketchy on the changes, my solo is just notes.
I like to think that that's the way really great players do it, except that they are so much better than we are (than I am!), that they get to the same place maybe on the 2nd or 3rd time through.
My brother is a pretty good professional jazz pianist, (old, and retired now. Played with Farlow, Peggy Lee, Mingus, many others), and he spends years developing tunes. One day I came upon him playing Round Midnight, and I commented on how nice his chord changes are on the tune. He chuckled, and said, "I've been working on it for about ten years." Well, that's me, too. But I don't think it through in scales or modes, only in what it sounds like, and how about if I try this? Or, this tune's lousy with flat fifths! Or, how about I play Am7 instead of C, or, here's an interesting Fmaj 7 - it has a B on the low E string! And on and on. We need two lifetimes!

Tommy/

[markerhodes]

I think we play best on tunes that we love and know inside-out. I'll never love "Autumn Leaves" the way I love "Summertime" and "Mean To Me," for example. I don't have to think when playing the latter but I do with the former because I don't know it so, well, intimately.

[Reg]

Don't make soloing more than it is... when your soloing over a Bb7 chord, and you play a C,Eb,F , why call or think of it as a C- triad ... I guess if your trying to imply a resolution of the Dom7 chord and you actually play or imply as to be heard the resolution of Dom7 to Tonic(Vi-) chord.... Majority of time their heard as what they are, the 9th, 11th and the 13th of Bb7. Most of the time jazz has strong - weak patterns, rhythmically and harmonically. Can be as simple as Bar 1(strong), Bar 2 (weak), Bar 3(strong), Bar 4 (weak) etc... or can be broken down to Beats (quarter notes), same thing beat 1(strong), beat 2 (weak) etc... or even down to 16th notes. Harmonic areas that are at rest or considered tonic in the scheme of the changes are usually on strong bars or beats and the dominant or more dissonant, again in the harmonic scheme of the progression are on weak bars or beats. When you solo the same principles apply. Obviously not all the time or your audience would fall asleep. I use subs all the time especially if the harmonic beat is slow. I mean Ornithology was based on How high the Moon's changes, Donna Lee on Sweet Georgia Brown, Groovin High on Wispering and Anthropology on I Got Rhythm. What makes lyrical ideas and conveys emotion... Is it balance of harmonic and melodic improvisation, is it a higher level of understanding or expression, or is it when someone puts him or her self on the line by spilling their guts through their solos... I tend to find that audiences are varied but they all appreciate a solo when you put your self into it... That's why I don't play to many ballads...it almost seems that you lose something every time you take one of those magical solos... so is it real or just a skill... Gots to go to gig... hope it's magical Reg

[Drumbler]

Wes played beautifully.

I think he may have used a lot of blues based ideas in his soloing. As a result he imposes riffs over the chords that may not directly match up with them.

[FatJeff]

Wes was the king of bop IMHO. I have yet to hear another guitarist who approached him in terms of great lines, great feel and great timing.

I have not yet transcribed any of his solos, even though I've done about 8 other transcriptions in the last year. I am too intimidated! At one point I memorized the first 6 or so choruses of "No Blues" (on his Smokin at the Half Note album)...I was able to scat along with him verbatim - but it's just too damned fast!!

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Wes was the king of bop IMHO....At one point I memorized the first 6 or so choruses of "No Blues" (on his Smokin at the Half Note album)...I was able to scat along with him verbatim - but it's just too damned fast!!

Man, I love that track! He goes on and on and on and it keeps getting better, more intense.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by Reg

Don't make soloing more than it is... when your soloing over a Bb7 chord, and you play a C,Eb,F , why call or think of it as a C- triad ... I guess if your trying to imply a resolution of the Dom7 chord and you actually play or imply as to be heard the resolution of Dom7 to Tonic(Vi-) chord.... Majority of time their heard as what they are, the 9th, 11th and the 13th of Bb7. Most of the time jazz has strong - weak patterns, rhythmically and harmonically. Can be as simple as Bar 1(strong), Bar 2 (weak), Bar 3(strong), Bar 4 (weak) etc... or can be broken down to Beats (quarter notes), same thing beat 1(strong), beat 2 (weak) etc... or even down to 16th notes. Harmonic areas that are at rest or considered tonic in the scheme of the changes are usually on strong bars or beats and the dominant or more dissonant, again in the harmonic scheme of the progression are on weak bars or beats. When you solo the same principles apply. Obviously not all the time or your audience would fall asleep. I use subs all the time especially if the harmonic beat is slow. I mean Ornithology was based on How high the Moon's changes, Donna Lee on Sweet Georgia Brown, Groovin High on Wispering and Anthropology on I Got Rhythm. What makes lyrical ideas and conveys emotion... Is it balance of harmonic and melodic improvisation, is it a higher level of understanding or expression, or is it when someone puts him or her self on the line by spilling their guts through their solos... I tend to find that audiences are varied but they all appreciate a solo when you put your self into it... That's why I don't play to many ballads...it almost seems that you lose something every time you take one of those magical solos... so is it real or just a skill... Gots to go to gig... hope it's magical Reg

(donna lee is indiana... dig is sgb )

[Reg]

Hey Randall...Thanks... wrong melody Reg