Improvisation road block.....

[TommyD]

Like everybody else on these boards, I think about improvisation a lot. Why? Because I’m not good at it, and I’ve been trying to dope out the reasons for my poor ability. Naturally, it starts with inadequate guitar-playing skills, and admittedly, that’s a big part of it. “Well,” you might say. “That’s easy. Just practice like hell. Especially scales and arpeggios” And it’s true. Practice does tend to make perfect.

But from what I hear in other people’s solos, good and bad, there’s another obstacle - at least for me. I’m one of those people for whom music runs through my head every waking moment. If I wake up at night, music is there. If I’m sawing wood, the saw-strokes become rhythmic and music runs through my brain. My cell phone plays two notes when I do something or other on it. Guess what? They are the first two notes of All The Things You Are. Whatever I hear reminds me of music. My solos are full of scraps from other tunes. Old tunes - like Indian Summer, With The Wind and Rain in Your Hair, Fascinating Rhythm, Sousa’s marches, Oh You Crazy Moon, I Love You, Frankie and Johnny, Deep Purple, Jo Stafford’s You Belong To Me - and a thousand more.

One cold-ass day in NYC, where winter blasts sweep through the canyons of the buildings and make it ten times colder, Lee Konitz and I were hurrying along the street with our noses running, our collars up and our hands deep in our jackets, and as usual, were talking about music through our frozen mouths.
I said, “I was talking to a guy, Lee, about music, and I told him that music runs through my head every waking moment. The friend thought that was weird and told me that he never hears music in his head. How about it, Lee? Do you hear music in your head?”
Lee said, “Sure. All the time.” I said, “The way I figure it, we must be the only two.”
Lee said, “Jesus! No wonder I can’t get a gig in New York!” We laughed until the tears ran.

In addition to not practicing enough scales and arpeggios, I’ve figured out that my problem, as it relates to inventing my own solos, is that melodies are so strong in my head that I can’t take off and leave them when I take a solo.
Take the Miles Davis tune “Four”. We all know it. When I solo on that catchy, dark, rondo-like melody, as simple as it is, Miles’s tune itself is so strong that it’s frankly better than anything I could dream up, although “Four” just cries to be soloed over. Emily Remler would rip hell out of it!

“Have you Met Miss Jones” is another terrific melody with a great chord structure. I’ve heard it played by everybody, just as you have. Good solos and bad. There’s a guy on Youtube, “Dutchbopper”, who plays the hell out of it. When I try? Forget about it! I can’t escape that great Richard Rogers melody.

I’m wondering if any of you have a problem improvising, and how you overcame it. Personal stuff. Confessions, not theories or pontificating. Break through stuff. You know . . ."Eureka!! But definitely not modal scale solutions, please!
Any takers?
Tommy/

[Gramps]

No real "erueka" here but one small suggestion.

Try keeping the timing of the melody but play different notes. For instance the beginning of Four (you mentioned earlier, tho I don't hear it as being dark at all but.....) has those 4 sets of triplets with the first 3 moving up the scale. Try playing the same timing but play a scale or arpegio fragment that moves down. You'll still retain something of the original melody you like so much but it will be your own.

Try not to make it harder than you need to.

Tommy,

Well written post Tommy. It was actually fun to read--very rare on the web.

Not hearing you play but knowing where you are coming from, my problem was I just didn't hear and feel the harmonic movement of the tune on a deep enough level. It isn't about 'learning the changes and forgetting them'. That is somewhat shallow advice because it doesn't address the how and why.

I'll share w/ you what my teacher has had and has me doing. It might help. Might not. I did post this to another question, somewhat similar. It has absolutely changed my connection with music. Some people seem to be able to do this w/ ease (Chet, Wes). Some can't (me). Of course, some struggle w/ technique which has never been a problem for me. Everyone has their weaknesses and strengths, I suppose.

Metronome set on 60-80 bpm.

1. Take a tune, any tune ...let's say 'Embraceable You'.
2. Sing/play the root movement of the changes w/ the guitar/piano/whatever.
3. Sing the root movement of the changes away from the guitar/piano/etc.
4. Sing/play the 3rds of the chords w/ the guitar.
5. Sing the 3rds away from the guitar.
6. Continue on to various intervals as you desire.

For bonus points, physically move as the chords change (step/sway/whatever). Crazy, but it seems to connect your ears, mind, voice, and body. This comes from Abby Whiteside and her book on mastering the Chopin etudes.

If you can, record just shell voicings of the changes and loop them, singing the various intervals along.

My teacher is an extremely well-respected musician and still does this type of thing on tunes. It has worked wonders for me for reasons not entirely clear. It seems to have all kinds of side benefits like an increased tolerance for silence, stronger ears, playing less b.s., etc. I expect to continue to this dance for many years.

[derek]

Great post. Btw, Dutchbopper, is an internet buddy of mine, Dick Onstenk, and he is a hobbyist like most of us here. He was in a rock band as a kid, and is a college prof now. It has taken him about 10 or so years of focus on jazz to get to where he is currently. However, he did have some chops prior to taking up jazz.

I have posted here before that I am gravitating more toward playing off the melody of tunes for the reasons you mention. I am just not going to improve Hoagy Carmichael's or Louis Bonfa's original idea. I can take liberties with it, but I am pretty clear that the original is where it's at.

The arps/licks/scales/triad studies and work I do facilitate me being able to do just that. Plus, I find that I can sing some fairly decent lines over tunes. I would like to be able to play those lines I sing at some point.

Pat Metheny said this summer at a master class "Storytelling on guitar – taking an idea and continually developing it – is a rare commodity. there are lots of great players, but not many story tellers."

The melody certainly tells a story. Each time I tell a story, the gist is there, but I do embellish it a bit, depending on how I feel at the time, and the audience I am telling it for. Maybe improvisation could be more like that.

[markerhodes]

I found a lot of help from two sources: one is Herb Ellis (Swing Blues, Rhythm Shapes, and All The Shapes You Are teach the "shape system" of improvising and provide lots of lines for you to learn and use in blues, rhythm changes tunes, and "All The Things You Are") and the other is Willie Thomas, a trumpet player, who put out a series called "Making Music" where he teaches improvisation 'the old way,' building up from pentatonic pairs to make / learn ii-V, ii-V-I patterns, as well as solos to six 'typical' tunes: a swing tune, a blues, a rhythm changes tune, a bop tune, a modal one, and I forget the other just now. Thomas is great in that he shows you how to get a lot of rhythmic variety out of a few notes.

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by jeffstocksmusic

Tommy,

Well written post Tommy. It was actually fun to read--very rare on the web.

Not hearing you play but knowing where you are coming from, my problem was I just didn't hear and feel the harmonic movement of the tune on a deep enough level. It isn't about 'learning the changes and forgetting them'. That is somewhat shallow advice because it doesn't address the how and why.

I'll share w/ you what my teacher has had and has me doing. It might help. Might not. I did post this to another question, somewhat similar. It has absolutely changed my connection with music. Some people seem to be able to do this w/ ease (Chet, Wes). Some can't (me). Of course, some struggle w/ technique which has never been a problem for me. Everyone has their weaknesses and strengths, I suppose.

Metronome set on 60-80 bpm.

1. Take a tune, any tune ...let's say 'Embraceable You'.
2. Sing/play the root movement of the changes w/ the guitar/piano/whatever.
3. Sing the root movement of the changes away from the guitar/piano/etc.
4. Sing/play the 3rds of the chords w/ the guitar.
5. Sing the 3rds away from the guitar.
6. Continue on to various intervals as you desire.

For bonus points, physically move as the chords change (step/sway/whatever). Crazy, but it seems to connect your ears, mind, voice, and body. This comes from Abby Whiteside and her book on mastering the Chopin etudes.

If you can, record just shell voicings of the changes and loop them, singing the various intervals along.

My teacher is an extremely well-respected musician and still does this type of thing on tunes. It has worked wonders for me for reasons not entirely clear. It seems to have all kinds of side benefits like an increased tolerance for silence, stronger ears, playing less b.s., etc. I expect to continue to this dance for many years.

J;
I'm not certain what you mean by "the root movement of the changes".
Also, when you play the 3rds of the chords, how do you set it up rhythmically? One note/bar? Or, repeated playing of the 3rds, sort of "4 to the bar" style, as you go along through the tune?
And what are "shell voicings"?
Tommy/

Tommy, sorry for not being clearer.

Root movement is just the root note of the chords. If it is a ii-V- I in C, that would be D, G, C.

As for rhythm, I generally stick w/ beats 1 and 3 since that is where the majority of changes happen in standard jazz tunes.

Shell voicings (my definition) are just the root, 3rd and 7th. Sometimes I will just do the 3rd and 7th. I like to test myself by playing the 3rd and 7th and trying to sing the roots. Tricky.

I like to create a very simple Midi or mp3 files of the shell voicings hitting on 1 and 3 at a slow tempo and just listen to them over and over again w/ no upper chordal extensions, no rhythm instruments, etc. Just the sound of the base harmony moving steadily through time. It is kind of meditative, to be honest.

You can then sing simple ideas over them, maybe just triads. Then play them. Once you really hear the changes, then you could practice over a play-along or with other musicians.

Again, this is just one way. There are likely zillions. It was suggested to me by my teacher and had an impact. I am definitely not trying to sell the idea as the ultimate solution. Just something that worked for me.

[Goofsus4]

Maybe you should put aside other people's songs and well known progressions for a while. Sit down and work out a progression you like by ear, record it, then play over it. No licks - just try to listen and make original music. Don't even play "jazz" at first - just make a strong melody. Let your mind respond to the the changes then play something. Then respond to what you just played. Make the melody rise, make it fall. Play a small thematic phrase, then respond to that in your next line, then revisit that phrase again. A solo should sound like someone telling a story. It should have chapters. You can make a hauntingly original song out of a single ii V I loop. But you have to sit down and work on doing that.

I'm no JS Bach, but I don't have a problem with improvising harmonically credible spontaneous melodic lines over a set of changes. Maybe it's because of I spend so much time doing the above. I hear the music and I just feel like I have something to say. My limitation has generally been connecting what I hear in my head to that tone on the fretboard. But I'm getting better at that all the time.

By the way, I do not hear music in my head until I hear other music, then I do hear a spontaneous reponse in my head. Because of this, I generally can't create melodies first. I have to create a progression first, then the melodies come out of hearing that.

[TommyD]

Thanks, Gramps. I am trying that. Great suggestion. It's opened doors.
Tommy

[TommyD]

G, I envy your ability. My head is too full of melodies to tackle what you're doing. I'd love to try, though. What I am spending a little time on though, is what people call "noodling", I guess. I just start playing arpeggios, ascending and descending, and add whatever runs seem appropriate. I sort of go around the circle, because that's a natural progression. I eventually end up back at the key of C, or wherever I started. I don't plan any of it out, just going where my ear takes me. It's a lot of fun and really has been improving my fretboard skills and familiarity.
T/

[Drumbler]

If you have Band-in-a-Box you might try this.

Pick a song, open up the Soloist feature. Select the soloist (JPass Guitar for example).

Select "Trade 4's or "Trade 8's". Select "All Solo" for choruses.

Mute the melody.

Start the song, trade 4's or 8's with the Soloist. Relax, get in the groove, get in the swing.

It helps your spontaneous improvising.

Also use the Jukebox feature which will go through all the songs in the folder you specify. Mute the melody. Load the Jukebox. Use the Trade 4's or 8's feature.

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by TommyD

G, I envy your ability. My head is too full of melodies to tackle what you're doing. I'd love to try, though. What I am spending a little time on though, is what people call "noodling", I guess. I just start playing arpeggios, ascending and descending, and add whatever runs seem appropriate. I sort of go around the circle, because that's a natural progression. I eventually end up back at the key of C, or wherever I started. I don't plan any of it out, just going where my ear takes me. It's a lot of fun and really has been improving my fretboard skills and familiarity.
T/

That sounds like a good exercise, Tommy. One thing that you can also do that helps my creativty is to take a simple progression and record yourself comping it a few different ways - different rhythms and tempos. Play it bossa style, then arpeggiate each of the chords like a slow ballad, then play it fast and really swing it. Then play your arps over those different styles. I find that my response to each style is much different and leads to me forming different melodies. I find myself targeting different notes for resolution and my phrasing changes dramatically when the comping rhythm and style changes.

Do you have a multi-track recorder? If not, I'd definitely invest in one. You can lay down a rhythm track, then recored yourself playing those arps as you said. Then lay down a 3rd track where you try to respond to the interplay between the comping and the arpeggios you played. You can build up some pretty darned fascinating pieces that way. One of my favorite things to do is record myself doing a dueling leads type thing where on one lead track I'll create a call but leave room for a response, then I'll record the other lead track and respond to the call - sort of like a couple of blues guys jamming.

Just experiment and have fun!

[TommyD]

Thanks, Jeff. I'm thinking about your approach and fooling around at the edges. Lee Konitz has a similar method. Here's what he suggests;
Pick a tune like Porter's "What is this thing called love", and place the music on the stand. Using the tune's chord structure, and eliminating all the passing chords, play one whole note per bar (on your sax or trumpet), choosing any note in the chord, tapping your foot or using the metronome. Let's forget about the half-diminished chords (the II chords) and say the first chord is D7, (which works just fine anyway).
That's D, F#, A, C. You choose one of the notes at random, and play it for four beats, then go on to the next chord. Next time through, choose another of the chords' notes.
After you're comfortable playing whole notes, play half-notes on the same four chord-notes at the same tempo, Then do quarter-notes, and finally eighth-notes, always choosing one of the same four chord notes.
By this time you're playing a fair solo - not the most sophisticated, but at least totally correct. A side benefit is that you're learning the chord structure really well.
Lee says he approaches every tune he plays this way. Naturally he doesn't start on whole-notes. Quarter-notes seem a reasonable place to begin, playing four-to-the-bar.
I never tried it on guitar, but it may be a good approach to solving the improvisation problem. I'm going to see if I can do it. It'll be a little more difficult because guitar notes naturally fade after they're plucked - you can't hold them like you can with a horn.
I think it will be great fun on the guitar. Think of all the arpeggios you can play! The rewards are great and it's worth a try, right? Maybe starting on half, or quarter-notes would be better for guitar.
Lee says he will not perform a tune in public unless he works it out like this. (I would guess that that's pretty much true for any top musician.)
T/

Tommy, that is a great method. I have heard Lee write about stuff along those lines, and Warne Marsh as well. It is inspiring to hear about guys like Lee and Warne who really start everything small in their practice and build from there to outstoundingly complex.

Lessons to be learned there, to be sure.

[FatJeff]

What I've been doing lately is to take a chart, and while BiAB is playing the changes (at a relatively slow pace) in the background, I play the 3rds & 7ths only, at a half-note pace each, striving to add in a little rhythmic interest instead of just plain half-notes. One interesting thing to note in this (and a kind of a crutch), is that all non-dominant chords (Maj7, min7, m7b5) have a perfect fifth in between their 3rds and 7ths. Dominant chords (dom7, dim7) have a tritone (diminished 5th) in between their 3rds and 7ths.

Then, after I can do this, I start doing simple ascending and descending patterns between the 3rd and 7th (e.g. 3-4-5-7, 7-5-4-3, etc.). Its not usually the most exciting improv in the world, but it works.

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

What I've been doing lately is to take a chart, and while BiAB is playing the changes (at a relatively slow pace) in the background, I play the 3rds & 7ths only, at a half-note pace each, striving to add in a little rhythmic interest instead of just plain half-notes. One interesting thing to note in this (and a kind of a crutch), is that all non-dominant chords (Maj7, min7, m7b5) have a perfect fifth in between their 3rds and 7ths. Dominant chords (dom7, dim7) have a tritone (diminished 5th) in between their 3rds and 7ths.

Then, after I can do this, I start doing simple ascending and descending patterns between the 3rd and 7th (e.g. 3-4-5-7, 7-5-4-3, etc.). Its not usually the most exciting improv in the world, but it works.

Interesting, Jeff! Joe Pass said that he never thinks (thought - sorry) about minor II chords - he only thought about dominants; dominants with flattened or raised fifths, ninths, thirds (making a sus), or elevenths. After all, only one note is different between dominants and minor IIs. So JP simply chose to never think about them. I find that fascinating. That's not to say that he never played them though. He just didn't think about them in his analysis and development of a tune. I'm not certain how he handled it exactly though. JP also gave a hell of a lot of thought to chord substitutions, and lost me in the process.
Tommy/

[derek]

Originally Posted by TommyD

Interesting, Jeff! Joe Pass said that he never thinks (thought - sorry) about minor II chords - he only thought about dominants; dominants with flattened or raised fifths, ninths, thirds (making a sus), or elevenths. After all, only one note is different between dominants and minor IIs. So JP simply chose to never think about them. I find that fascinating. That's not to say that he never played them though. He just didn't think about them in his analysis and development of a tune. I'm not certain how he handled it exactly though. JP also gave a hell of a lot of thought to chord substitutions, and lost me in the process.
Tommy/

I have made this comparison before, but I think Joe's distilling things V to I is why he often sounds so inside. Other than modal stuff, all of western music is about V to I. That plus his extensive encylcopedic knowledge of melodies. Pat Martino on the other hand, is thinking only about the minor, which is why he sounds more angular and modern.

It's a theory anyway.