"Diminished Scales Not Useful For Diminished Chords"

[rlemos]

Hi Everybody,

Please permit me to call your attention to an article that I have in
the latest issue of JUST JAZZ GUITAR (Feb 2010) with the "brazen"
title, "Diminished Scales Not Useful For Diminished Chords".

This two-part article (Part 2 will be in the May 2010 issue) is based
on a chapter in my book, "Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts: A Pentatonic
Modal Approach to Improvisation". I propose that soloing with
diminished scales is too complicated and difficult to implement.
Instead, I show how to handle any diminished chord with either of two
simple pentatonic scales. The article (and the book) give an overview
of diminished scale theory and then demonstrate how this theory is too
complicated (for me) to help in an actual gigging situation. Examples
(including sound files) are provided on how this approach works in
actual chord progressions like Night and Day and turnarounds.


I hope you find this information "interesting". Best wishes,

Ron

[On Sugar Hill]

Hmm not really sure I can agree with this 100%. At least for me, diminished isn't too hard of a scale to think about becuase it's all parallel. It makes shapes really easy to visualize and if you know where all the chord tones of your next chord are on the neck, you should really be fine. I can understand that a dominant sound over a diminshed works and is easier, but why limit to yourself? It's not as if it sounds bad. I think dimished scale is most useful over a V7 chord like if your'e doing a ii V I in C, a G half/whole diminished scale works great and isn't too much to think about.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by On Sugar Hill

Hmm not really sure I can agree with this 100%. At least for me, diminished isn't too hard of a scale to think about becuase it's all parallel. It makes shapes really easy to visualize and if you know where all the chord tones of your next chord are on the neck, you should really be fine. I can understand that a dominant sound over a diminshed works and is easier, but why limit to yourself? It's not as if it sounds bad. I think dimished scale is most useful over a V7 chord like if your'e doing a ii V I in C, a G half/whole diminished scale works great and isn't too much to think about.

Hello, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my post. Not clear if you've had the chance to read the article. However, my approach is presented as a tool that may be useful to some. I agree with all of your comments regarding the diminished scale. However, if my Major Pentatonic Blues Scales sounds good to you over the Idim7 chord in an actual song, then I have achieved my goal of broadening the palette of sounds available over this chord in fast moving changes. If you do not like this sound, then simply don't use it. The article has examples and mp3 files of using my approach in Night & Day and a standard turnaround: Cmaj7 Cdim7 Dm7 G7.

Thank you once again for your interest and best wishes, Ron

[jazzbender]

Well, between the snow and the holiday on Monday I'll be lucky to see the Feb JJG by the end of the week. But I look forward to reading your article. There's always room for a new approach, especially after hearing so many players just plug in predictable patterns over diminished chords.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by jazzbender

Well, between the snow and the holiday on Monday I'll be lucky to see the Feb JJG by the end of the week. But I look forward to reading your article. There's always room for a new approach, especially after hearing so many players just plug in predictable patterns over diminished chords.

Hi, I haven't received my issue yet and I'm in "sunny" California! I appreciate you keeping an open mind on my approach. I will appreciate any feedback you can share. Best wishes, Ron

[gkorm]

Originally Posted by rlemos

Please permit me to call your attention to an article that I have in
the latest issue of JUST JAZZ GUITAR (Feb 2010) with the "brazen"
title, "Diminished Scales Not Useful For Diminished Ch tatonic
Modal Approach to Improvisation".

Hi Ron, I looked but could not find the article on line. Do you have a link for it, or do I need to order the magazine?

Thanks!

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by gkorm

Hi Ron, I looked but could not find the article on line. Do you have a link for it, or do I need to order the magazine?

Thanks!

Hi,

Yes, for now the article only appears in the lastest issue (Feb 2010) issue of Just Jazz Guitar. My website link below only provides the mp3 files to two of the examples in the article and the website for Just Jazz Guitar:

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

You may want to consider subscribing. The magazine is top-notch and great value as you can see by checking out the Table of Contents.

As you probably already know, I do have older copies of a few articles on my website. Hope you find them useful.

Thank you for your interest.

Ron

[gkorm]

Hi Ron, Thanks for the link and suggestion! Best wishes, George

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by gkorm

Hi Ron, Thanks for the link and suggestion! Best wishes, George

Hello George,

You are most welcome! Best wishes again,

Ron

[fep]

Hi Rlemos,

I read the article on Dorian that you linked. It is well done.

You didn't mention in the article but I'm sure you know that your D Dorian Penatonic is a D minor 9th arppegio. You have come up with some fingerings I haven't used or thought of - 2 notes per string.

Jazz players already know the arppegios... I'm not sure how renaming them as penatonic scales changes things. ?

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by fep

Jazz players already know the arppegios... I'm not sure how renaming them as penatonic scales changes things. ?

If that's the case then every 9th arpeggio could be called a pentatonic. 13579 in any of its qualities.

I'll have to read the article. I know of 2 common pentatonics. When you consider that each has 4 modes that's 10 scales. Each one winds up being an arpeggio of some sort

C D E G A. major pentanonic (C 6/9)
C D Eb G A 'kumoi' pentatonic (Cmi 6/9)

Past this, I would look at all pentatonics as arp's

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by fep

Hi Rlemos,

I read the article on Dorian that you linked. It is well done.

You didn't mention in the article but I'm sure you know that your D Dorian Penatonic is a D minor 9th arppegio. You have come up with some fingerings I haven't used or thought of - 2 notes per string.

Jazz players already know the arppegios... I'm not sure how renaming them as penatonic scales changes things. ?

Hello, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my article. You are exactly correct. The notes to the scale are the same for the Dm9 arpeggio. The same idea applies to the standard Am pentatonic scale: A C D E G. These notes form an Am11 arpeggio. Things only change if thinking about these ideas is useful. I have developed a self-contained system of pentatonic scales that work with every chord and ensure there are never any "avoid" notes. This helps some (like me) concentrate on pure melody and not worry about wrong notes. Also, fingering these scales with two-notes-per-string is more natural for some (like me) than the standard way of playing arpeggios. The most important thing is that my system can be used exclusively or simply as an augmentation to how you currently play. I am simply trying to provide additional tools that I hope people find useful.

Thank you once again for your interest. Please feel free to comment further or ask any questions. Best wishes,

Ron

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

If that's the case then every 9th arpeggio could be called a pentatonic. 13579 in any of its qualities.

I'll have to read the article. I know of 2 common pentatonics. When you consider that each has 4 modes that's 10 scales. Each one winds up being an arpeggio of some sort

C D E G A. major pentanonic (C 6/9)
C D Eb G A 'kumoi' pentatonic (Cmi 6/9)

Past this, I would look at all pentatonics as arp's

Hi JohnW400

Please see my response to "fep". When you have had the chance to read the article, I would really appreciate your feedback. The article is at:

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

Thank you very much for your response. Best wishes,

Ron

[gkorm]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

I would look at all pentatonics as arp's

Yes thanks! Before reading Ron's article, and your comment, I hadn't thought of it in this way. I like to see the basic pentatonic laid out as an arpeggio (just to illustrate your point): (A min pent) A D G C E A

I have found Jerry Bergonzi's book, Pentatonics, a great resource for going very deep into this topic. Ron's work looks like a very good way in for guitarists who find Bergonzi's book at all intimidating (and of course, Bergonzi's book has nothing in it to aid guitarists with fingering and fretboard advice).

Thanks again to Ron for alerting us and posting the links.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by gkorm

Yes thanks! Before reading Ron's article, and your comment, I hadn't thought of it in this way. I like to see the basic pentatonic laid out as an arpeggio (just to illustrate your point): (A min pent) A D G C E A

I have found Jerry Bergonzi's book, Pentatonics, a great resource for going very deep into this topic. Ron's work looks like a very good way in for guitarists who find Bergonzi's book at all intimidating (and of course, Bergonzi's book has nothing in it to aid guitarists with fingering and fretboard advice).

Thanks again to Ron for alerting us and posting the links.

Hello gkorm,

You are most welcome. I believe all of the Bergonzi books are excellent. In my book, I reference his Pentatonics book (Vol 2) and his book on 4-note patterns (Vol 1). The two-note-per-string approach is a major feature of my approach. I would appreciate any feedback you could share on how it works for you.

Best wishes,

Ron

[fep]

Dr. Ron,

I do like the 2 note per string concept as that is a new idea for me that I can easily incorporate into my playing.

Since my last post I've been playing with that idea. I haven't bothered learning your fingerings as I already know the fretboard well enough to be able to play minor 9 arps all over the fretboard with 2 notes per string... probably the same fingerings you use.

For me, what I think is the primary benefit of this idea is:

A lot of use cut or teeth on rock and/or blues and we know rolls and licks off of the penatonic - 2 notes per string scale. Those lick 'ideas' can be easily applied to these two notes per string 9th chord arps creating some interesting new licks.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by fep

Dr. Ron,

I do like the 2 note per string concept as that is a new idea for me that I can easily incorporate into my playing.

Since my last post I've been playing with that idea. I haven't bothered learning your fingerings as I already know the fretboard well enough to be able to play minor 9 arps all over the fretboard with 2 notes per string... probably the same fingerings you use.

For me, what I think is the primary benefit of this idea is:

A lot of use cut or teeth on rock and/or blues and we know rolls and licks off of the penatonic - 2 notes per string scale. Those lick 'ideas' can be easily applied to these two notes per string 9th chord arps creating some interesting new licks.

Hi fep,

Fantastic! You are exactly "right on". Thank you so much for sharing.

Ron

[fep]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

If that's the case then every 9th arpeggio could be called a pentatonic. 13579 in any of its qualities.

I'll have to read the article. I know of 2 common pentatonics. When you consider that each has 4 modes that's 10 scales. Each one winds up being an arpeggio of some sort

C D E G A. major pentanonic (C 6/9)
C D Eb G A 'kumoi' pentatonic (Cmi 6/9)

Past this, I would look at all pentatonics as arp's

Hey John,

Something I learned from Derek, the dominant penatonic... Using G7 as an example

G B C D F

For minor it's the penatonic we all already know; Gm7

G Bb C D F

For major; Gmaj7

G B C D F#

And Gmaj7 lydian is cool too

G B C# D F#

I really like these, expecially the dominant one.

Run the G7 penatonic like this one time, F G B C D F D C B G

Interesting sound, don't you think?

I think these are penatonics and not arps, at least that's what I call them.

[gkorm]

Originally Posted by fep

Dr. Ron,

I do like the 2 note per string concept as that is a new idea for me that I can easily incorporate into my playing.

Since my last post I've been playing with that idea. I haven't bothered learning your fingerings as I already know the fretboard well enough to be able to play minor 9 arps all over the fretboard with 2 notes per string... probably the same fingerings you use.

For me, what I think is the primary benefit of this idea is:

A lot of use cut or teeth on rock and/or blues and we know rolls and licks off of the penatonic - 2 notes per string scale. Those lick 'ideas' can be easily applied to these two notes per string 9th chord arps creating some interesting new licks.

Seems like I am in almost the same category as fep, with the essentially the same initial response to your article, Ron. And it is fun to go back and play with lines based on number of notes per string -- especially for application of hammer-on and pull-of accents!

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by gkorm

Seems like I am in almost the same category as fep, with the essentially the same initial response to your article, Ron. And it is fun to go back and play with lines based on number of notes per string -- especially for application of hammer-on and pull-of accents!

Hi gkorm,

Excellent points. Also, all of the bends you already know work with this system. Very good for expressive playing. Other pentatonic techniques include string skipping, slides, and rapid repeating two-string licks.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Ron

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by fep

Hey John,

Something I learned from Derek, the dominant penatonic... Using G7 as an example

G B C D F

For minor it's the penatonic we all already know; Gm7

G Bb C D F

For major; Gmaj7

G B C D F#

And Gmaj7 lydian is cool too

G B C# D F#

I really like these, expecially the dominant one.

Run the G7 penatonic like this one time, F G B C D F D C B G

Interesting sound, don't you think?

I think these are penatonics and not arps, at least that's what I call them.

Hi John,

You might be interested in my version of the dominant pentatonic that I call the Mixolydian Pentatonic Scale. I spell it as 1 2 3 5 7. For a G Mixolydian Pentatonic Scale, the notes would be: G A B D F. I have a YouTube video where I demonstrate the use of this scale. If you are interested, please check it out at:

YouTube - Mixolydian Pentatonic Scale Lesson: Jazz Guitar Soloing Over "Rhythm Changes" Bridge by Ron Lemos

Thank you,

Ron

[JohnW400]

Fep,

Not to hijack a thread but here's something I worked on. Take a one octave 7th chord arpeggio. (any one) then add all the other notes but only one at a time

Major 7th = 1357

Now add:

b2
1 b2 3 5 7 (nice Paco D sound)

nat 2
1 2 3 5 7

#2
1 #2 3 5 7

4
1 3 4 5 7

#4
1 3 #4 5 7

b6
1 3 5 b6 7 (think harmonic major)

nat6
1 3 5 6 7

b7 (on ma7)
1 3 5 b7 nat 7 (be-bop scale)

Do this on:

dominant7, min7, min7b5, dim7, mi(ma)7, ma7 #5, ma7 b5 , dom7 #5, dom7b5 amd mi7#5.

You will then have a boat load of pentatonics to choose from.

If you're adventurous, do the inversions as well.


These also work on(as) pure chords major minor augmentes and diminished triad.


One more thing, The way I was taught these was to invent a pattern using each one and taking it through the cycle of 4ths. This way they don't sound so stiff and you start to build youself a 'lick library'.


Dr. Ron, I'll have a look at your article tomorrow when I have more time. I was lucky enough to find the LAST SNOW THROWER in my area and I'll be tinkering with that for the rest of the day. (The old one crapped out right before the big storm last week)

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Fep,


Dr. Ron, I'll have a look at your article tomorrow when I have more time. I was lucky enough to find the LAST SNOW THROWER in my area and I'll be tinkering with that for the rest of the day. (The old one crapped out right before the big storm last week)

Hi JohnW400,

I appreciate your input. Your views and ideas on the article will be most welcomed and appreciated. Sorry you have to deal with the snow. Best wishes,


Ron

[derek]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Fep,

Not to hijack a thread but here's something I worked on. Take a one octave 7th chord arpeggio. (any one) then add all the other notes but only one at a time

Major 7th = 1357

Now add:

b2
1 b2 3 5 7 (nice Paco D sound)

nat 2
1 2 3 5 7

#2
1 #2 3 5 7

4
1 3 4 5 7

#4
1 3 #4 5 7

b6
1 3 5 b6 7 (think harmonic major)

nat6
1 3 5 6 7

b7 (on ma7)
1 3 5 b7 nat 7 (be-bop scale)

Do this on:

dominant7, min7, min7b5, dim7, mi(ma)7, ma7 #5, ma7 b5 , dom7 #5, dom7b5 amd mi7#5.

You will then have a boat load of pentatonics to choose from.

If you're adventurous, do the inversions as well.


These also work on(as) pure chords major minor augmentes and diminished triad.


One more thing, The way I was taught these was to invent a pattern using each one and taking it through the cycle of 4ths. This way they don't sound so stiff and you start to build youself a 'lick library'.


Dr. Ron, I'll have a look at your article tomorrow when I have more time. I was lucky enough to find the LAST SNOW THROWER in my area and I'll be tinkering with that for the rest of the day. (The old one crapped out right before the big storm last week)

John, that is exactly the kind of thing I have been messing with. I find that 2/3 of my teaching is for kids/adults who want to rock or play the blues, so lots of pentatonics. To keep me from being bored, I have been altering them, and substituting them. Of course, we have talked much here in recent years about pentatonic subs.

There just seems to be something about these 5 note patterns that make them lie somewhere between scales and arpeggios in their usage. Very handy little buggers.

Ron, thanks for your work on this topic, as it really has had me thinking a bunch lately. I always had the sense that I needed to leave my old pentatonics behind when I took up jazz a number of years ago.

[Giggedy]

Hmm, definitely going back to read this later.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by rlemos

Hi JohnW400

Please see my response to "fep". When you have had the chance to read the article, I would really appreciate your feedback. The article is at:

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

Thank you very much for your response. Best wishes,

Ron

Ron,

I had a chance to look over your articles today. It's a different approach than most jazz players and you 've done a lot of work on it.

Your method makes it easy for the rock blues player to crossover. That's a good thing but it I can just picture going to a Guitar Center now and some little kid will be spewing off pentatonic riffs to Giant Steps thinking that that's all there is. Banging his head away like Coltrane had played with Metallica

But If it opens them up to more things then that's good.


However I would not think of this method as the do-all or a complete guide. Missing are the more outside uses of the pentatonic like D major pentatonic against C for a Lydian sound, or Db against a C for that 7b9 sus4 sound. (Never mind the possibilites from the minor version or kumoi scale)



Regarding making new pentatonics by dropping notes from the modes, well, I just think they're an arppegio and are better left that way

You can see in the my example above that following the arppegio formulas will get you more pentatonics than you could find by dropping notes out of just about any of the common 7 note scales. I think they're also easier to think of theory wise. All you do is add some kind of 2,4 or 6 to the basic 1357 formula.

Good luck with your book

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Your method makes it easy for the rock blues player to crossover. That's a good thing but it I can just picture going to a Guitar Center now and some little kid will be spewing off pentatonic riffs to Giant Steps thinking that that's all there is. Banging his head away like Coltrane had played with Metallica

I think that may be one of the signs of the coming Apocalypse. Let me know if you see it come to pass.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I think that may be one of the signs of the coming Apocalypse. Let me know if you see it come to pass.

Hey Ron...your materials way cool...and I'm sure it helps a ton of players get some early gratification... all good but at some point if your going to play jazz ...I think you need to get the basics. And for an analogy; would be like learning to paint, without all the colors. What you believe you just painted is really... Well I hope you get my point, I'm not trying to criticize and apologize now if taken in that manor. I just fear and somewhat agree with BigDaddy and not just in music. Optimistically Reg

[oilywrag]

Hi all, A Vic Juris video was posted a bit back about pentatonic scales.I can understand why some people seem not to like the idea of instant jazz.But perhaps the people using these ideas dont want to learn all the theory and lock themselves away for the next decade practising.It all depends on what an individual wants out of there own music, and to what standard they want to be at.I would have thought that Dr lemos is just trying to open things up a little and perhaps even the most talented out there may be given a new idea or two and that can never be a bad thing.
To be honest you would still have to be able to play the guitar to take full advantage of the system,even more so to play over Giant Steps.
Cheers Tom

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Reg

And for an analogy; would be like learning to paint, without all the colors. What you believe you just painted is really...

Well, Picasso had a Blue Period, why can't I had a blues period? (Couldn't resist!)