how do you practice "thinking"?....

princeplanet · #1 11-09-2009, 08:28 AM

I think I've been doing too much repetitive "cycles" practice lately, you know, take an idea and work it through all positions in all keys mindlessly in front of the TV. Thinking that it's just for muscle memory so there's no point in concentrating too much. So that's fine, I can do 4 hours and not be too bored that way, but, of course, there is a downside....

OK, an example. I'm doing a 2-5-1 7-3(alt)-6 thing at the moment at a bar per chord playing unbroken 16th notes. All keys all positions at 145bpm. Mixing arps, chromatic approaches to chord tones, alt scale runs, dorian motifs and a pentatonic sub (5th mode) with 2 extra passing notes for the I chord.

So, after a few days I have this down, so now I decide to put this to work. I decide to try running through he whole exercise and just think where I am, and where I'm going, easy right? Problem is, because I'm using "sub" ideas like the 5th Pent, the 7th MM scale (alt) and Dorian modes, (as well as starting the min vii b5 arp from a different note in each position) I'm playing faster than I can think. I get to a key like F# and I'm nailing the subs but not making the mental connection with it until after I started playing the bar, or even not at all!

Obviously I want to eventually be able to associate all these "ideas" I'm practicing to the chord shapes and have them under my finger tips as quickly as I can make the changes with the chord shapes themselves. So, am I doing this wrong? Should I only ever practice as quickly as I can think and gradually speed up, or is it ok to mindlessly get the speed up through muscle repetition, and then slow it down to decode it?

Am I forming bad habits? How do you guys practice "thinking" what you're playing? Does thinking too much disturb other mental processes and trip you up? Do you need 2 brains, one for the fingers and one for the "choices"? When you improv, is it like reading a chord chart where you like to to think about the next chord while you're playing the current one? Do you think in chunks? By the bar? By the chord? By the cadence???

derek · #2 11-09-2009, 10:13 AM

The thing I didn't read was after the muscle memory thing, putting it into all sorts of tunes. That is the next step for me. I too will spend hours burning stuff into my fingers and ears, but to really own it, I have to play it in a bunch of tunes.

Really to the point of nauseum. This seems to be the rule for me. Whether it is a new CM arrangement, lick, line, etc., by the time I am really sick of it, it is ready to go. I haven't found anything quicker yet.

gsharpe · #3 11-09-2009, 10:36 AM

Someone once asked Yogi Berra ...
" ... Yogi , do you think about what pitch is coming ? ... " Yogi replied ...
" ... I'm up there to hit ... you can't think and hit at the same time ... " .

From the sounds of your practice , 16 notes\145 bpm = you own the guitar!
No worries .

Keep doing what you're doing .

My only suggestion to you , and it might or might not help you , is to play along with some tunes you never heard of ... to accustom to letting go of the thinking .

Keep going baby !

princeplanet · #4 11-09-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsharpe

Someone once asked Yogi Berra ...
" ... Yogi , do you think about what pitch is coming ? ... " Yogi replied ...
" ... I'm up there to hit ... you can't think and hit at the same time ... " .

From the sounds of your practice , 16 notes\145 bpm = you own the guitar!
No worries .

Keep doing what you're doing .

My only suggestion to you , and it might or might not help you , is to play along with some tunes you never heard of ... to accustom to letting go of the thinking .

Keep going baby !

Thanks for the encouragement, but doing these "etudes" of mine, no matter what speed, seems kinda mindless at the moment, a lot more work is needed to turn it into music. I may take up your suggestion to try to apply these ideas to as many new tunes as possible, but not to let go of the thinking, infact the opposite! I guess I need the challenge of randomness or something. Learning cycles helps for common cadences, but there's more to jazz than 2-5-1....

JohnW400 · #5 11-09-2009, 01:42 PM

Have you thought about jamming with just a drummer? No other instruments. Or at least no bass, keys etc.

Don't call tunes. Just have th edrummer start to play ...whatever.... and just play whatever comes to mind against his beats. Don't try to think in any key or chords or what. Just play and see what comes out.

gsharpe · #6 11-09-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Thanks for the encouragement, but doing these "etudes" of mine, no matter what speed, seems kinda mindless at the moment, a lot more work is needed to turn it into music. I may take up your suggestion to try to apply these ideas to as many new tunes as possible, but not to let go of the thinking, infact the opposite! I guess I need the challenge of randomness or something. Learning cycles helps for common cadences, but there's more to jazz than 2-5-1....

You're practising the way I feel you should be . You're doing the thinking thing , going thru the changes , going thru your reps ...

... but at the moment of truth , you can't be thinking about things , or you're not going to hit the musical HR . lol

You have to train the soul muscles to play what you're hearing , and all that scalular\modular training will fall into play naturally .

For the record , I know you to be planets ahead of me in terms of theory ... but I'm an old man , and since I don't know exactly where you are in experience time , I may be able to save you the benefit of my experience in wasted years .

I was a big speed\scale guy . But never could apply any of it musically . The breakthough for me was to be able to hear b2nds\2nds\3rds from the note last played . This breakthough occured 20 years after I started playing . It should have taken 5 .

You're worried about your thinking not catching up to your playing .
I'm worried that it will .

John McLaughlin has a great training video out now. Highly recommended.
HOWEVER ... after each lessen , he tries to incorporate what he taught in the last lesson to an improvisation . It's the funniest thing in the world . The most boring dull guitar solos ever put to CD ! lol

Too much thinking .

C.A.JO. · #7 11-09-2009, 04:31 PM

I think when practicing, but try not to when performing. It is my ultimate goal to be able to play what I hear in my head. IMO music theory is for explaining what sounds good. Therefore when I practice improvisation I try to turn everything but my feelings, fingers and ears off and just play. I try to think of performing/improvising as a "right side of the brain-activity" while practice is a "left side of the brain-activity".

Goofsus4 · #8 11-09-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

OK, an example. I'm doing a 2-5-1 7-3(alt)-6 thing at the moment at a bar per chord playing unbroken 16th notes. All keys all positions at 145bpm. Mixing arps, chromatic approaches to chord tones, alt scale runs, dorian motifs and a pentatonic sub (5th mode) with 2 extra passing notes for the I chord.

I'm really confused by this. I thought "thinking" was for players who weren't at this stage yet!

I don't see how anyone can think and improvise. You can only feel. All the thinking was done during practice and rehersal, but when it's time to play a line on the fly you just have to know what notes will sound right and then grab them in ways that make a musical or even a rhythmic statement and resolve to tones that work with the accompaniment.

I know that for me, if you play me a progression or a song I know inside and out, then there's no thinking. I know those chords, and I know what I can play over them that will sound good. It may not sound like a jazz legend, mind you, but people won't be covering their ears either. That's why I spend so much time running those lines, so I can quit thinking and just listen to the accompaniment, respond to it in real time, and play what I'm feeling.

I'm the same way with a melody. I can't think about a melody. I have to practice it until I can play it without thinking. Only then can I embellish it on the fly and not foul it all up.

C.A.JO. · #9 11-09-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

I don't see how anyone can think and improvise. You can only feel. All the thinking was done during practice and rehersal

+1!!!

Jazzaluk · #10 11-09-2009, 06:10 PM

I think what is missing is a "center of gravity"(CoG). A single, simple mindset that focusses your attention and provides a "strange attractor" for your learned skills to orbit around. To me the only useful CoG comes from the tune. Each tune has its own constraints that will limit and frame your technical and theoretical knowledge. Each tune has its own CoG. Try to think of the melody of the tune and the feel that it is trying to evoke. This will free the mind from technical things and unleash muscle memory. It is very difficult to think of theory and technique while also trying to preserve a single mental concept of the tune.

In India, there is a symbol of an elephant holding a branch with its trunk. The reason for the branch was so the elephant's trunk did not wander and eat the fruit while walking through the markets, The trunk represents the mind. The branch symbolizes a focus for the mind so that it does not wander and steer you from the purpose.

I don't mean to get all zen on the subject but the tune is really the most important Center of Gravity both while practicing and when playing. Exercises and drills may be necessary but they are devoid of musical or emotional intent.

musicalbodger · #11 11-09-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

I think I've been doing too much repetitive "cycles" practice lately, you know, take an idea and work it through all positions in all keys mindlessly in front of the TV. Thinking that it's just for muscle memory so there's no point in concentrating too much. So that's fine, I can do 4 hours and not be too bored that way, but, of course, there is a downside....

4 hours in front of the TV and not be bored

— man, you need to get out more!

Maybe you should try turning the TV off and playing some music.

JohnW400's suggestion re. playing with just a drummer is a great idea, very liberating, it's how I found my music. Try some free improvising too, not thinking, just using your ears and your soul. Thinking makes for boring playing.

Space Pickle · #12 11-09-2009, 10:02 PM

I find the more I think the less I listen.

princeplanet · #13 11-09-2009, 10:42 PM

OK, you all seem to be saying that one shouldn't be thinking too much when performing, I totally get that and that's fine. But I'm talking about thinking while practicing. The best players are the best thinkers, no? I mean they would have developed a way to incorporate ideas to the point they need no longer "think" about it, but to get to that point took some great (and surely "long") thinking?

I often wonder how Bird "thought", not during gigs, but in the woodshed. Did he work up 300 or so "ideas" while learning to apply them in a variety of situations, bending them around so they seemed like 3000 ideas? Did he conceptualize lines against cadences so that he could be noodling away and then here comes that 2-5-1 where he'll land "this line" because, of all the 30 choices he had to start on the note he was near, the one that came to him just "felt" like it needed to come out......

There seems to be a symbiosis or something in great players between how they "thought" out their strategies and how they "express" them creatively and spontaneously. A synergy between thought and expression. For the moment I seem to be on a path toward gathering a humble handful of ideas in the hope that they will be one day sublimated in a way where they are dominated by how I feel from one moment to the next. I've assumed that it should be no different to reading a chord chart and having the time to "improvise" your chord voicings, the more voicings you know, the more you can improvise them.

But I'm realizing there's a difference between searching for a chord shape and searching for a 16 note phrase. Practicing for it takes a lot more brain power!

princeplanet · #14 11-09-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

I'm really confused by this. I thought "thinking" was for players who weren't at this stage yet!

Just to clarify, the exercise I was talking about doesn't not involve any improvising. The only reason things are "mixed up" is that they change depending on the position on the guitar (starting on different inversions etc). If I was able to mix things up at will then I wouldn't be complaining here that I can't think fast enough!

princeplanet · #15 11-09-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsharpe

I was a big speed\scale guy . But never could apply any of it musically . The breakthough for me was to be able to hear b2nds\2nds\3rds from the note last played . This breakthough occured 20 years after I started playing . It should have taken 5 .

Care to elaborate, I'm quite interested to hear more. Sounds like something the great bebop pianist and teacher Barry Harris would say....

princeplanet · #16 11-09-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

In India, there is a symbol of an elephant holding a branch with its trunk. The reason for the branch was so the elephant's trunk did not wander and eat the fruit while walking through the markets, The trunk represents the mind. The branch symbolizes a focus for the mind so that it does not wander and steer you from the purpose.

I don't mean to get all zen on the subject but the tune is really the most important Center of Gravity both while practicing and when playing. Exercises and drills may be necessary but they are devoid of musical or emotional intent.

Good stuff, why not get all Zen about it, it's all about focus right?

princeplanet · #17 11-16-2009, 12:00 PM

....so anyway, since the last post in this thread, I have been getting a bit "Zen" with it all. I decided that my weakness was that, even after slowing cycle exercises down (playing stuff against every chord in every key in every position), I was not easily able to even say aloud the names of the chords as I went through them. Of course, if I were just playing the chords, then naming them is a cinch.

Got me thinking, If I can change chord shapes, this does not compete with my ability to think their names, yet when I play 16 note prefab "ideas" against the same chords (BIAB backing), I couldn't even say my own name at the same time. Why is shaping chords less taxing cerebrally than playing lines? Because I know them better? Because I have more time to think? (one physical movement instead of 16!). Well, yes and yes! Answer? Sublimate the lines to the point I can say the chord names while playing over them. How? Muscle memory first- then thinking exercises where I concentrate on thinking and saying the names of all the chords as they fly by against my lines.

I can't believe how difficult I've been finding this! BUT- I'm happy to report progress. It's like learning a circus act, you know, like how to juggle knives while riding a unicylcle and whistling Dixie..... can be done, just needs truckloads of concentration and practice. Maybe other folks don't find it so hard, but it feels like a breakthrough for me, and I'm convinced that I have to develop this "duality" further, where no matter what I'm playing, part of my brain is totally secure about how my lines relate to the chord. Not so much as in an active thinking kind of way, but more like a "relaxed, passive awareness" kind of way. Zen even......

merseybeat · #18 11-17-2009, 01:03 AM

May I butt in! I actually practice the same way! I tend not to think too much about the technical aspects of the 'chord of the moment' but more its sound! I was once told that once your comfortable with you technical abilities, "Start Using Your Ears". This bit of advice was so true! I find now that I enjoy soloing much more, and my brain doesn't ache either!

I personally think that once you supersede the 16's at 120BPM + you should start to think of the overall effect of the lick and NOT the single notes within!

What works for me now is a 4 or 8 note improv and connect to another position with pre-arranged 16's run.

I practice for hours in front of the TV just running over a difficult phrase! Its an easy and great way to practice (as long as you have a particular chord of the moment in your minds ear). However watch your posture! I got into a habit of lying on the couch and playing away only to find that when I sat up I had to spend an hour to recalibrate my arms!

Cool thread PP! nice one

Eddie Hughes

princeplanet · #19 11-17-2009, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merseybeat

May I butt in! I actually practice the same way! I tend not to think too much about the technical aspects of the 'chord of the moment' but more its sound! I was once told that once your comfortable with you technical abilities, "Start Using Your Ears". This bit of advice was so true! I find now that I enjoy soloing much more, and my brain doesn't ache either!

I personally think that once you supersede the 16's at 120BPM + you should start to think of the overall effect of the lick and NOT the single notes within!

What works for me now is a 4 or 8 note improv and connect to another position with pre-arranged 16's run.

I practice for hours in front of the TV just running over a difficult phrase! Its an easy and great way to practice (as long as you have a particular chord of the moment in your minds ear). However watch your posture! I got into a habit of lying on the couch and playing away only to find that when I sat up I had to spend an hour to recalibrate my arms!

Cool thread PP! nice one

Eddie Hughes

Haha! Yeah, I hear ya re the posture thing, it's getting so that I can only play in a certain position. Standing with the gtr strap on is starting to feel weird...

artcore · #20 11-17-2009, 07:16 PM

" However watch your posture! I got into a habit of lying on the couch and playing away only to find that when I sat up I had to spend an hour to recalibrate my arms"........I sit with my back against the couch and the
guitar propped up on my left knee..I've been doing this so long its the only
way Im comfortable.....

merseybeat · #21 11-18-2009, 01:25 AM

Man I am so relieved its not just me! All said and done though, posture correction 'recalibration' only takes a short amount of time (unless your completely deforming yourself!). This used to frustrate me a little but now I am aware of it, the benefits of such a comfortable practice regime far out-way the simple hour or so it takes to adjust to a 'live' playing position!

Eddie

artcore · #22 11-18-2009, 09:20 AM

I think for me it may take a little longer, I tried sitting in a chair and it
just didn't feel right...Remember in my younger days the only way I could
play was standing up..now I don't think I could play standing up!...bad
habits....

merseybeat · #23 11-19-2009, 04:22 AM

Hi Artcore, do you wear a strap? I always do so at least my guitar to body position is constant!

Eddie

Goofsus4 · #24 11-19-2009, 09:37 AM

I think it is important, as guitarists, that we are capable of playing our instruments in all manner of positions. Consider Angus Young, for instance. In a particularly impassioned moment during a solo, you might also feel compelled to drop to the stage floor and spin about on your back like a pinwheel! You still need to be able to shred in those situations.

musicalbodger · #25 11-19-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

you might also feel compelled to drop to the stage floor and spin about on your back like a pinwheel!

Can just imagine Jim Hall doing this!!

princeplanet · #26 11-19-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Man I am so relieved its not just me! All said and done though, posture correction 'recalibration' only takes a short amount of time (unless your completely deforming yourself!). This used to frustrate me a little but now I am aware of it, the benefits of such a comfortable practice regime far out-way the simple hour or so it takes to adjust to a 'live' playing position!

Eddie

I hope you're right about the quick re-calibration, because I too think that slouching on the couch in front of the TV is a comfortable inducement to practice (albeit sometimes mindlessly!). I mean, standing with a strap or sitting with a straight back with nothing to look at except the guitar is just so boring that I can't practice very long that way, unfortunately..... The hundreds of hours of mindless repetition has no doubt built my chops without too much "pain"- but the downside has to be acknowledged. I hope I can minimize it....

artcore · #27 11-19-2009, 11:33 AM

I don't wear a strap, but thats a good point, I think I will l from now on
What I really need is a music room or a den, rather than having a tv in
front of me...

randalljazz · #28 11-19-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I hope you're right about the quick re-calibration, because I too think that slouching on the couch in front of the TV is a comfortable inducement to practice (albeit sometimes mindlessly!). I mean, standing with a strap or sitting with a straight back with nothing to look at except the guitar is just so boring that I can't practice very long that way, unfortunately..... The hundreds of hours of mindless repetition has no doubt built my chops without too much "pain"- but the downside has to be acknowledged. I hope I can minimize it....

but hundreds of hours of mindful practice would benefit you exponentially more...

princeplanet · #29 11-19-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randalljazz

but hundreds of hours of mindful practice would benefit you exponentially more...

Yes, and I hope anyone reading this will take your advice.

merseybeat · #30 11-21-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yes, and I hope anyone reading this will take your advice.

Yes, I totally agree, there is no substitution for "mindful practice". I apologize if it seemed I was suggesting a lazy approach to practice?

What I meant was that sometimes to get a difficult lick off I will spend a few "mindful hours" internalizing it at a speed I am comfortable with!
Once its in my brain and fingers I may sometime just laze on the couch and just repeat this lick for hours on end until it becomes fluid.

I find that I can concentrate hard on what I am doing for around two hours or so! And in addition I can add a few more hours with this approach!

I certainly would not recommend this as a practice regime for "learning' new material. It only works for me as I have quite a large library of my favorite "tried and tested" licks I have already internalized.

Eddie