The Bebop Scale

[christianm77]

Watch the Rotem Sivan videos.
They are good.

[Dave Lewis]

Jerry Bergonzi Jazz Lines Vol. 3 covers exactly what you are talking about. I've been belatedly getting into bebop scales, and I think they can be especially relevant to guitar players.

I started with what I would consider a "Berklee" approach to improvising, wherein you see a chord and play the scale that corresponds to it. Basically, you get this floaty, unconnected vibe that just doesn't sound like the old school records. When I started experimenting with bebop scales, chord tones on the down-beats and approach notes, I started recognizing these sounds from classic jazz recordings.

Maybe it's just the transcriptions I've done, but I find bebop scales to be lick-oriented, and maybe I will see one of those licks 1 or 2 times in an entire solo. On the other hand, the idea of chord tones on the downbeats, seems to be integral to classic jazz articulation.

I asked a sax player I know about it, and he said he didn't really think about it, because as an exclusively melodic instrument , he could only play chords as arpeggios and so did it sort of naturally. Ultimately, it's really about what sound you are chasing, and it would seem to me to be valid for one to say they wanted a more modern sound and so they weren't going to investigate all this. I just really dig how it sounds.

[mr. beaumont]

I put out some old Parker Transcriptions and looked a little bit whats going on there depending on the rhythmic. and yes i have to say it's shocking me how consequent he place chromatic passing notes on the offbeat. There are only a few bars where he don't do that and use some stuff like - " Chromatic from below, chromatic from above and then dissolve in a chord or scale tone."

But things he did not do is placing only chord tones on the downbeat. There are a lot of scale Tones on the downbeat, often he is starting a phrase with a scale tone like 11 for minor7 Chords. On Dominant he use alterations on downbeats quite often like b9, b6 etc.

What i see on the first look ist that he likes to place Scale Tones on the beat like this (in a 2-5-1)

minor7 - 11, 9 and very - ! Terrifying often b13 on the downbeat as chromatic passing note and for Beginning a phrase !

Dominant7 - 11, 13, 9 mosty but also alteration like b9, #9, #11 (ok for Tritone-Substitut),

Major7 - 9, 13, - often he likes to play #5 on the downbeat or starting a phrase with #5 on the downbeat (no idea why :-D )


When i look at the video of Rotem Sivan. He also introduce possibilities for use bebop scale where scale tones (in this case the "G" - 9 ) fall on the beat.

Ok people will think now i am overanalyzing and be to critical. But i am really confused.
When i look at the Rotem Sivan Video and his scales, he also use a G as a nine for his scale on the downbeat.
So the goal seems not really be to put only chord tones on the downbeats. Charlie Parker don't do that and Rotem Sivan break the Rule in his video after 1 minute and use Scale Tone on the downbeat after he said "This thing help you to only put chord tones on the downbeat".

My question now is. should i really torture a student to practice (as a essentiell skill) to only put chord tones on the downbeat if the greats also use Scale tones on the downbeat all the time.

I think the really important thing is to be able to target chord tones for guidetonelines if the chord changes. in between of them, its absolutely a good advice to place scale tones on the downbeat as well ?

Maybe i am a little bit a pain in the neck. But i really try to find the perfect exercises and concepts for Jazz and Bebop Phrasing for my students (and also to understand more what i am doing the whole day :-D ) and don't want to torture someone with things which doesn't bring you to the goal ;-)

I wouldn't say you're overthinking it, but you are trying to place rules to practice that's already happened.

So yeah, somebody teacher-like said "put chord tones on the downbeats." Why? Because it sounds good. And there's thousands of bop lines that do just that...if you listen to enough of it, it becomes a sound you gravitate towards...but it's certainly not a rule. It's certainly not the only way to do things, as the Parker lines you transcribed show.

[Reg]

It's not easy or simple.

First... if you don't have chops, your not going to even get close to playing bebop.
By chops... you can already play everything well.

The next realization... those chromatic notes are also chord tones. There are more chords going on than the basic I VI II V. And the added chords also have rhythmic and directional organization. ( I just used the I VI II V chord pattern for one example)

If you can't comp and imply those other changes, your going to not really be able to solo and imply those changes.

Using chromatic organization, will fill out the rhythmic pattern or spatial thing... (you'll play enough notes with organization), but that organization may miss some of the bebop character.... Blue notes and chord patterns using those blue notes. Blue notes are not just b3 and b7...

I would suggest practicing being able to imply any chord... and then add approach chords to that chord.

So can you solo over one chord... not noodle... play burnin lines that imply that chord. (be able to harmonically imply the chord and use different chord tones and extensions as the target for that improv) Play Bb6/9 and use the root, then the 3rd, then 5th etc.... as the target note... the structural most important note during your improv.

So your soloing on Bb6/9... basic 4 bar vamp.... up tempo, at least 180, should be faster. (So this should be easy, if not.... you might not really be ready to play bop). Anyway... now start adding simple V7 chord on the 4th bar, then the Sub V7.

So you now have 4 bar phrase... with I chord and a V7 chord on the 4th bar of that phrase.
You have 5 chord tones on the I chord, 1, 3, 5 ,6 and 9.... and same thing with the V7 chord.
That's already... 5 different improv approaches, just using chord tones of the I chord.
Add the V7 and subV7... now...10, 20.... alter the V7 and sub V7 etc...


So you need to go through this process with all chords.... yes it takes a while. And the point is... it's not magic, it's very physical.
And this process will help you organize how to play... even if you want to do it your way, going through the process will help you define what your way actually is...and your going to have references... when you play, you don't have to memorize everything in every key, because you'll have organization which doesn't matter what the key is...it's the same. You push your internal transposition key.

Much easier that learning every tune in every key etc... you can still learn every tune in all keys if you want.

So now your ready to start using chord patterns.... and not just Dominant or V7 approaches or types of chord movement.

I really don't believe many of you have gone through this... somewhat basic beginning process. This is just basic technique,

In the end... you begin to see and hear that chromatic notes... all embellishments have harmonic references. So instead of using approach, passing, enclosures... embellishments... you'll hear chords... same with Blue Notes. All notes can have harmonic references... at least if you want then to.

It's not that you need or are required to play, reference or imply the chords... but when you begin to develop solos... you have references to help organize those developments......it eventually just become simple... like playing the blues, you can just play.

Bebop scales seem to be an approach to help with implying some of those "other" changes with a scale reference.

[ginod]

the 9 is a chord tone. you should not "torture" students with concepts that you're not 100% clear about yourself, imo.

Ok thats a point of interpretation. You can say its a chord tone for F9. But its not a chord tone for F7, its a option note which the mixo scale give the chord. And if you add option notes for your Chord on a Dominant you got the Mixo scale. So if we say "Scale tones are Chord notes and Chord notes are scale tones" than we can just say, ok we play Scale notes on the downbeats and not the chord notes.

But if we declare a system to only put chord notes on the downbeat, than we can't say chord notes of F7(9,11,13) that would simply be the same concept as scale note approach.

Maybe its ok like this because, there are no avoid notes in the mixo-scale. I think the system "only chord notes" is maybe more important on the Major7 chord. But also Parker put the 4th of major7 chords on downbeats in it all the time

[mr. beaumont]

See, here's the deal...

As you see in Reg's post above, a 9th is a chord tone, really, in most cases at least.

You're talking about a specific type of instructional material, these bebop scales, which refer to the 1 3 5 and 7 as chord tones. The whole idea of a bebop scale is that it's constructed to keep this pattern going in a stream of 8th notes...so take from that what you will.


That's not incorrect, but you have to understand, this is something invented to be "taught." And you don't sell books or videos or land university gigs saying "Well, this is how you could do it, sometimes, but maybe not..." Authoritative, bounding on authoritarian (My way or the highway) is what sells, it's what gets you students.

[Dave Lewis]

I think what is getting lost in the discussion, is that chord tones on the downbeats is a "sound". It's not a question of what is right or wrong. Thinking about it, it also has to do with the nature of melody in popular music. If you sit down with some standard chord progression, and make up a dumb-ass song with words about moonbeams and sunflowers and shit, and sing it along with your chords, you will put chord tones on all the downbeats, it's just how popular music is structured.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok thats a point of interpretation. You can say its a chord tone for F9. But its not a chord tone for F7, its a option note which the mixo scale give the chord. And if you add option notes for your Chord on a Dominant you got the Mixo scale. So if we say "Scale tones are Chord notes and Chord notes are scale tones" than we can just say, ok we play Scale notes on the downbeats and not the chord notes.

But if we declare a system to only put chord notes on the downbeat, than we can't say chord notes of F7(9,11,13) that would simply be the same concept as scale note approach.

Maybe its ok like this because, there are no avoid notes in the mixo-scale. I think the system "only chord notes" is maybe more important on the Major7 chord. But also Parker put the 4th of major7 chords on downbeats in it all the time

To me, this is where the rules-based stuff gets contrived. I would think of them more as guidelines for PRACTICING within limitations, with the long goal of learning to HEAR chord tones or whatever. You need to be able to hear ninth as a basic tension which resolves , but eventually need to be able to hear it as a extension as well. Again, I don't think it's a rule. If you've never done the thing really learning to hear ninths resolving, that's probably pretty basic.

More than some kind of cut and dry, binary "chord tone vs non chord tone" clear delineation, it's about learning to hear basic targeting patterns in the first place. In my mind, it's more like degrees of tension as opposed to tension versus chord tone. I mean tonic is more resolved sounding than the third usually...

And you can target any chord tone using the inside arpeggios of THAT chord. There are basic aspects of targeting related to things like rhythm, repetition etc which don't have ANYTHING to do with outside/inside or chord tone/non-chord tone. I don't think rules help at all with understanding these basic kinds of ideas. Think a good teacher would probably go a long way.

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[Dave Lewis]

To me, this is where the rules-based stuff gets contrived. I would think of them more as guidelines for PRACTICING within limitations, with the long goal of learning to HEAR chord tones or whatever. You need to be able to hear ninth as a basic tension which resolves , but eventually need to be able to hear it as a extension as well. Again, I don't think it's a rule. If you've never done the thing really learning to hear ninths resolving, that's probably pretty basic.

More than some kind of cut and dry, binary "chord tone vs non chord tone" clear delineation, it's about learning to hear basic targeting patterns in the first place. In my mind, it's more like degrees of tension as opposed to tension versus chord tone. I mean tonic is more resolved sounding than the third usually...

And you can target any chord tone using the inside arpeggios of THAT chord. There are basic aspects of targeting related to things like rhythm, repetition etc which don't have ANYTHING to do with outside/inside or chord tone/non-chord tone. I don't think rules help at all with understanding these basic kinds of ideas. Think a good teacher would probably go a long way.

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I really like this take on the subject! Additionally, when discussing chord tones, there has to be an agreement what chords you are talking about. It seems a common misconception that there exists an absolute chord progression to any particular song, ala Real Book. Harmony only exists to support melody, and there are quite a few ways to do that. As a soloist, you are creating melody, and hopefully you are playing with other players who are able to hear that melody, and create support, within the basic framework of the song, in cool and inspiring ways, which pushes you to make new melodies etc. The upshot is, everybody has to be able to hear and understand what everyone else is doing, it's an ear thing.

[matt.guitarteacher]

9ths do not resolve. they are not tension notes. b9s do.

I'm not really interested in doing a semantics thing on this. I mean you can target the seventh with the root . I would use the term "resolve " if the seventh is the target and you set it up that way . I'm not really interested in some universe where things always have a constant value and we argue over the minutia of terminology like that.

The second scale degree of the chord of the moment very often resolves to the one. Maybe there is other harmony actually implicit. Again, not interested in that debate today. Or insert whatever term you prefer for "resolve" in that context. I don't care.

I hear the opening head to Freddy freeloader as basic tension release. Dooo-baaa. Very easy for even beginning players hear. Call it whatever you like. I don't think the rules-based system is easier to understand than basic tension/release. Upper neighbors, lower neighbors is melodic targeting 101. Tension and release. Elementary.

[christianm77]

I put out some old Parker Transcriptions and looked a little bit whats going on there depending on the rhythmic. and yes i have to say it's shocking me how consequent he place chromatic passing notes on the offbeat. There are only a few bars where he don't do that and use some stuff like - " Chromatic from below, chromatic from above and then dissolve in a chord or scale tone."

But things he did not do is placing only chord tones on the downbeat. There are a lot of scale Tones on the downbeat, often he is starting a phrase with a scale tone like 11 for minor7 Chords. On Dominant he use alterations on downbeats quite often like b9, b6 etc.

What i see on the first look ist that he likes to place Scale Tones on the beat like this (in a 2-5-1)

minor7 - 11, 9 and very - ! Terrifying often b13 on the downbeat as chromatic passing note and for Beginning a phrase !

Dominant7 - 11, 13, 9 mosty but also alteration like b9, #9, #11 (ok for Tritone-Substitut),

Major7 - 9, 13, - often he likes to play #5 on the downbeat or starting a phrase with #5 on the downbeat (no idea why :-D )


When i look at the video of Rotem Sivan. He also introduce possibilities for use bebop scale where scale tones (in this case the "G" - 9 ) fall on the beat.

Ok people will think now i am overanalyzing and be to critical. But i am really confused.
When i look at the Rotem Sivan Video and his scales, he also use a G as a nine for his scale on the downbeat.
So the goal seems not really be to put only chord tones on the downbeats. Charlie Parker don't do that and Rotem Sivan break the Rule in his video after 1 minute and use Scale Tone on the downbeat after he said "This thing help you to only put chord tones on the downbeat".

My question now is. should i really torture a student to practice (as a essentiell skill) to only put chord tones on the downbeat if the greats also use Scale tones on the downbeat all the time.

I think the really important thing is to be able to target chord tones for guidetonelines if the chord changes. in between of them, its absolutely a good advice to place scale tones on the downbeat as well ?

Maybe i am a little bit a pain in the neck. But i really try to find the perfect exercises and concepts for Jazz and Bebop Phrasing for my students (and also to understand more what i am doing the whole day :-D ) and don't want to torture someone with things which doesn't bring you to the goal ;-)

Didn’t see this post. This is slightly frustrating. I feel I am not getting 100% where you are coming from.

Yeah you are overthinking it. Don’t theorise, do. Go through those basic Barry exercises in the Sivan video and play with them to create musical lines. See if you like them.

Can you play bebop? If not, IMO, don’t try to teach it until you learn. If you can but can’t break it down, a book is useful.

To those saying - check out the music, I 100% agree. My motivation in all of this was to understand what was going on in the music not trying to build it from the ground up.

As a teacher myself I find that it’s really important that students be able to play triad chord tones through the whole tune. That’s the first step. If they can do this melodically, we can think about 7s. Then 9s. This is a very important first step. A lot of guitarist, even ones who know their scales backwards can’t do this basic thing. It’s obvious on piano. It’s not obvious on guitar.

You could also do a lot worse than getting students to learn a few bop heads by ear and explore the melodic and harmonic techniques used. The type of analysis you use will affect your approach.

As far as bebop scales: Nowadays I approach everything from simple blocked harmonic elements. For instance the first 4 bars of Au Privave are analysed from the perspective of C7. The next 4 from F.

I don’t think so much about extensions now, I think of ‘chords’ - stacks of thirds through the scale. Purely melodic shapes.

The only way to make convincing lines in bebop imo is to think melodically not harmonically. The harmony is built into the scales in the Barry approach.

For some reason I often feel like I have to justify or explain the BH approach here. Often from people with a more mainstream cst style approach who want to understand it before they’ve tried it or slot it into their current understanding (which won’t really work!)

Really all I can say is ‘give it a go’ - it gave me a lot of nice toys and tools for playing this type of music. It’s not the only thing I ever use or have ever checked out, but it repays a deep exploration.

[ginod]

Didn’t see this post. This is slightly frustrating. I feel I am not getting 100% where you are coming from.

Yeah you are overthinking it. Don’t theorise, do. Go through those basic Barry exercises in the Sivan video and play with them to create musical lines. See if you like them.

Can you play bebop? If not, IMO, don’t try to teach it until you learn. If you can but can’t break it down, a book is useful.

To those saying - check out the music, I 100% agree. My motivation in all of this was to understand what was going on in the music not trying to build it from the ground up.

As a teacher myself I find that it’s really important that students be able to play triad chord tones through the whole tune. That’s the first step. If they can do this melodically, we can think about 7s. Then 9s. This is a very important first step. A lot of guitarist, even ones who know their scales backwards can’t do this basic thing. It’s obvious on piano. It’s not obvious on guitar.

You could also do a lot worse than getting students to learn a few bop heads by ear and explore the melodic and harmonic techniques used. The type of analysis you use will affect your approach.

As far as bebop scales: Nowadays I approach everything from simple blocked harmonic elements. For instance the first 4 bars of Au Privave are analysed from the perspective of C7. The next 4 from F.

I don’t think so much about extensions now, I think of ‘chords’ - stacks of thirds through the scale. Purely melodic shapes.

The only way to make convincing lines in bebop imo is to think melodically not harmonically. The harmony is built into the scales in the Barry approach.

For some reason I often feel like I have to justify or explain the BH approach here. Often from people with a more mainstream cst style approach who want to understand it before they’ve tried it or slot it into their current understanding (which won’t really work!)

Really all I can say is ‘give it a go’ - it gave me a lot of nice toys and tools for playing this type of music. It’s not the only thing I ever use or have ever checked out, but it repays a deep exploration.

Thank you very much for reply again. It's everytime really helpful.
At the moment i have two books here. Jerry Bergonzi Vol.3 (he explained the Bebop Scale Concept pretty well there) and Vol 6. (i think in this book he expand the language with other concepts).

I am in progress at the moment. But getting clearer how this concept work step by step. But iam still a little bit critical because i come form a whole another school of thinking about jazz.

In my Beginnings, i started to practice arpeggio - all kinds of arpeggio, in all keys in all positions.
Then i tried to connect them with each other from bar to bar. Important was to connect the chords with each other. I practiced the stuff like "ok target note in the next bar is the 3rd everytime, or the 7th ... " . My professor called this the "Big Scale Practice".

After this i saw arpeggio pattern like glowing lights on the fretboard. After that i filled it with the actual scale (dorian, mixo, ionian). So for guidetone connecting and for long notes i play my glowing Arpeggio notes, and for filling i use the Scale.

After that i decided to put chromatic in my playing. So i add chromatic between the chord and the scale notes.

With this ideal, i worked a while on many 2-5-1 progression to find nice sounding jazz lines. From time to time i discovered the Dominant Scales for the Dominant like "altered Scale", "Harmonic Minor 5" and so on.

After that , upper structure stuff came also to outline typical option notes for a chord.

I think my strong based arpeggio concept is a little bit another kind of thinking. In this Barry harris concept, its really mathematical, based on scale for every different situation, if you are on the upbeat everytime changes.

I will give it a try, but at the moment i not see this big advantage across from using arpeggio pattern and say "ok Arpeggio is downbeat, everything else ist upbeat".

And it looks a little bit senseless to me to say "ok in this concept we try that we only have chord notes on the downbeat, but 9 and 13 is also ok and if you want to start from the 4th its also ok, but then not again please - but wait .... Charlie Parker did this all the time in the transcriptions - 4th over the major7 chords on downbeats more than often and sometimes 2 or 3 times. Same thing with dominant - he uses 11, on the downbeats and alterations also. Sure and in modern language there are so many dominant scales who consider many alterations successively.

[christianm77]

Thank you very much for reply again. It's everytime really helpful.
At the moment i have two books here. Jerry Bergonzi Vol.3 (he explained the Bebop Scale Concept pretty well there) and Vol 6. (i think in this book he expand the language with other concepts).

Cool! Glad to know it's helpful.

OK I don't know Bergonzi's material first hand.

The waters are a little murky because (AFIAK) the bebop scale concept originated with Barry, his take on it is a bit more complex, and crucially he doesn't use the same terminology as anyone else.

I am familiar with the David Baker books, which are very good.

Everything I talk about is specifically Barry Harris stuff... So it might not be massively relevant unless you want to go down that rabbit hole.

I am in progress at the moment. But getting clearer how this concept work step by step. But iam still a little bit critical because i come form a whole another school of thinking about jazz.

In my Beginnings, i started to practice arpeggio - all kinds of arpeggio, in all keys in all positions.
Then i tried to connect them with each other from bar to bar. Important was to connect the chords with each other. I practiced the stuff like "ok target note in the next bar is the 3rd everytime, or the 7th ... " . My professor called this the "Big Scale Practice".

After this i saw arpeggio pattern like glowing lights on the fretboard. After that i filled it with the actual scale (dorian, mixo, ionian). So for guidetone connecting and for long notes i play my glowing Arpeggio notes, and for filling i use the Scale.

After that i decided to put chromatic in my playing. So i add chromatic between the chord and the scale notes.

With this ideal, i worked a while on many 2-5-1 progression to find nice sounding jazz lines. From time to time i discovered the Dominant Scales for the Dominant like "altered Scale", "Harmonic Minor 5" and so on.

After that , upper structure stuff came also to outline typical option notes for a chord.

This sounds like what I went through in my playing for around 15 years. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as an approach to playing on changes. I think it's a fantastic foundation.

(About 5-7 years ago I moved from practicing seventh chords as the foundation of my playing to triads. this is simply because triads are more flexible stylistically, and I noticed a lot of players were using triads in solos rather than 7th chords all the time.)

TBH - I'm still in two minds about whether or not a player should first learn to do things this way or go direct to Barry... I don't know!

Why not just teach that? Or are students specifically quizzing you about bebop scales?

I think my strong based arpeggio concept is a little bit another kind of thinking. In this Barry harris concept, its really mathematical, based on scale for every different situation, if you are on the upbeat everytime changes.

I will give it a try, but at the moment i not see this big advantage across from using arpeggio pattern and say "ok Arpeggio is downbeat, everything else ist upbeat".

Green eggs and ham :-)

I'll say a little about my history with BH's material. When I first went to his classes and got passed this bit of paper with those intimidating rules I basically ignored them.

I started to revisit his single note material about 5 years ago - not sure if I can remember why. I'd transcribed a lot of late30s, 40s and 50s, so had a sort of idea of swing & bebop of my own.

Having been primarily a chord tone & embellishment improviser I notice a fair few scale lines in the bop horn and piano players and started to think about scales again.

I remember thinking - oh Barry's stuff neatly encapsulates what I've been thinking about and suggest other options. So I've been exploring his stuff, alongside other more CST oriented concepts and here we are.

If I had to call the difference between the two styles of thinking, I would put it this way

1) Chord tone/arp improvising - learning subs and so on to create extended chord sounds (e.g. Bm7b5 on G7, Cmaj7#5 on Am, that type of thing) - building scales out from arpeggios.

2) Barry's approach - everything is built into the scale and the background harmony is a basic foundation on which you build your own structure.

So if I see Gm7 C7 I play lines based on the C7 scale (mixo), I can play lines going up and down the scale with added notes as discussed by Sivan which will clearly outline the C7 sound. I can play in 3rds, triads and 4+ note chords though the scale, I can add in lower neighbours, surrounds (enclosures) etc. And if I get bored of C mixo, I can use other scales like F#7, Eb7, G melodic minor, Db melodic minor... Etc Etc. Using the same basic principles.

Now if I play through a scale in 3rds or chords a whole bunch of harmony will be generated which could be understood as substitute harmony in the chord tone worldview, but here they are simply melodic expression of that basic scale. In this sense I see BH's single note stuff as melody focussed, not harmony focussed, which I find freeing.

On the highest level we are talking about two facets of the same thing.

And it looks a little bit senseless to me to say "ok in this concept we try that we only have chord notes on the downbeat, but 9 and 13 is also ok and if you want to start from the 4th its also ok, but then not again please - but wait .... Charlie Parker did this all the time in the transcriptions - 4th over the major7 chords on downbeats more than often and sometimes 2 or 3 times. Same thing with dominant - he uses 11, on the downbeats and alterations also. Sure and in modern language there are so many dominant scales who consider many alterations successively.

I think you are confusing what is essentially an exercise from the reality of music. But it is an exercise that is reflected in common practice.

I'm not sure which examples you are talking about here - whether this is in descending scales, or in other types of lines. From my own explorations of the music I have found that when bop musicians play descending scales they do tend to be very aware of where the chord tones are rhyhtmically in the line.

If they do use an appoggiatura (i.e. a dissonant* note on a strong beat) such as in the first few notes of Billie's Bounce it's often a rhythmic feature.

You don't have to be a Barry guy to do this of course - you already have that skill from soloing around chord tones. So it could be that bebop scales are simply unnecessary for you.

Also with a bebop scale - you can start on appoggiatura - F on a C7, say - and the BH rules will make it so that the line eventually sorts itself out so that you end up on a chord tone. I don't think it's so much about every chord tone being on the beat, more allowing you a way to get yourself back up the right way. After a while of working with the rules, you start to develop an ear and intuition for this type of thing.

And rules don't work if you want to connect the line into another chord - you need another set of guidelines for that. Or do it by ear (how I do it.)

A very good example of classical bebop scale use is Donna Lee.

* the distinction between a dissonant tone and an extension is not cut and dried in jazz of course... We can play 11th on C7 - Gm7 on C7 for instance, out of the C7 scale.

[ginod]

Thank you for sharing this.

In this working process i really recognize that i don't know so much about bebop like i thought that i do .

But that's cool, so i can learn new things. I think many of my teachers were really "modern" Jazz Guitarplayer. So maybe i have got a little bit a weakness in Bebop Language.

But i think i have a good foundation in other things. Like you point out, there are many Guitarplayer who can play all the big Scales and Arpeggio pattern, but in they can't play Triads or Triad Arpeggio over the whole fretboard. I work a lot with triads, because of you know them you can use your Jazz Knowledge also in other styles like Country or Rock Playing.

At the moment i really focus to set all my chromatic notes on the offbeats when i playing. So i play simple standards and try really to do only this. It's really cool, because my Lines sound totally different - but its unbelievable hard at the moment. My brain is running all the time. In double Time Stuff i have no chance to really be sure, that i don't hit a "appogiatura" ;-).

But like you said, it's only a basic skill. I have found a Video of Jens Larsen, where he shows other chromatic approachs for Bebop playing. Some of them have chromatic notes on the downbeat. Also in Jerry Bergonzi Vol. 6 are many concepts of "Halfstep below, halfstep above" stuff, where you need to play a chromatic note on the downbeat.

But i really want no excuse anymore. I want really to have the ability to set the chromatics where i want in relationship to the rhythm. So i can say "Ok now i put them on the beat all the time, now i put them on the offbeat all the time ..." .

[christianm77]

I’d suggest your getting Roni Ben Hurs Minor Blues lesson on my music masterclass

[princeplanet]

Classical beginners practice 7 note scales. Jazz beginners, it seems since David Baker, spend many hours as a beginner practicing 8 note bebop scales. I know I did, and I'm tempted to concede they were a complete waste of time, except that I think they instilled in my ear the Dominant's "sound" because of the the chord tone on down beat thing.

Of course, you pretty soon figure out there are thousands of ways to chromatically embellish chord tones, so you move on to those for a few years. For every chord, every position, every key etc etc.

Then you feel ready for the next level where you actually try to sound like you are creating melodies on the fly using all your devices, patterns and licks as well as totally new ideas as they pop in your head, even at the brisk tempos. There's your next few decades taken care of right there...

Cut a long story short, bebop scales have their place near the beginning, but with so much more to work on, the sooner you leave them behind the better. The amount of time people on this forum spend discussing them is frankly bewildering. It's like going on a Higher Mathematics forum and seeing too many posts on how best to memorise your 12 x multiplication tables.!

I know people wanna help, but the OP is hardly a beginner, and the more experienced people here can't even seem to keep the advice regarding these scales concise and/or consistent. It's just a freakin' scale man!

[Alter]

Bebop scales can be a great way to start incorporating chromatic notes in someone's playing. I feel they really have a place when approaching bebop line improvisation. I would start with these three

dominant 7 chords, adding a chromatic note between the root and b7
major 7 chords, adding a chromatic note between the 5 and 6
minor 7 chords, adding a chromatic note between the b3 and 4

And then there are a lot more to go from there.

However, successful use always depends on what degree of the scale and where on the beat your phrase starts. You are aiming for basic chord tones falling on the downbeats. But basically you want to start hearing the scale and the phrases and just putting it under the fingers.

[ginod]

ok i bought some books. And tried to worked with them. The most of these books are for all instruments, not specific guitar. So i searched a way, how i can really practice the idea of bebop skala on the guitar.

First i have figure out that there are basically 3 different Dominant Bebop Scales.

Bebop Skala 1 has a major7

Bebop Skala 2 has a major7 and a b2

Bebop Skala 3 has a major7, b2 and a b3

To really be sure that i use the right scale in the right situation i have made some pattern. In these pattern i point out the "starting notes" (white box) for each Bebop Scale.

I practice every patter and try to start my line at the starting point. When i want to start on an offbeat, i approach a starting point with a chromatic note.

In my pdfs. You can take a look on the pattern/diagrams. I think thats my way to learn that stuff. You can use all these pattern over a Dominant7 or also over the second degree of the 2-5-1 Progression.

[christianm77]

Bebop scales can be a great way to start incorporating chromatic notes in someone's playing. I feel they really have a place when approaching bebop line improvisation. I would start with these three

dominant 7 chords, adding a chromatic note between the root and b7
major 7 chords, adding a chromatic note between the 5 and 6
minor 7 chords, adding a chromatic note between the b3 and 4

And then there are a lot more to go from there.

However, successful use always depends on what degree of the scale and where on the beat your phrase starts. You are aiming for basic chord tones falling on the downbeats. But basically you want to start hearing the scale and the phrases and just putting it under the fingers.

Using these rules, write out the bebop scale for Dm7, and G7. What do you notice?

[Alter]

it is the same notes of course!

[christianm77]

it is the same notes of course!

Indeed.

In Barry's approach we dispense with the ii in a ii-V, so really the idea of there being a m7 bebop scale is not really in that approach. But it kind of shows how everything is blocked into one chord.

The fact that the G7 is outlined over the Dm7 is really telling I think. I kind of file it as a 'ficticious scale' in my head.

That said, I've got a lot of mileage out of thinking of minor chords as dominant chords and running the dom scale over them, which is the same thing. You may prefer to think of it as a minor scale.

If we did have a Dm7 bop scale it would be the F6 scale - so the added note, so to speak, would go between the 1 and b7 on the minor, which is actually quite useful. If we added more extra notes they would between the 4 and b3 and 5 and 4, which again is kind of cool.

so the question for a player is - on a ii V do you think dominant (Barry), minor (Pat Martino), both (lots of people I think)?

[Alter]

I haven't really used any of these two concepts. Coming from rock and blues i had learned the appropriate scales on each chord, mixo for Dom7 and say Dorian for Min7. When i got into jazz it all became about chord tones and arpeggios, and then seeing a lot of relative chords on a fingerboard area, and the motions, tensions and resolutions they imply.

But i think practicing bebop scales is sort of like doing transcriptions. It sounds very period correct to me, although my sense of jazz improvisation comes most from things that are based on harmony and not so much on chromatisism.

[christianm77]

I haven't really used any of these two concepts. Coming from rock and blues i had learned the appropriate scales on each chord, mixo for Dom7 and say Dorian for Min7. When i got into jazz it all became about chord tones and arpeggios, and then seeing a lot of relative chords on a fingerboard area, and the motions, tensions and resolutions they imply.

But i think practicing bebop scales is sort of like doing transcriptions. It sounds very period correct to me, although my sense of jazz improvisation comes most from things that are based in harmony and not so much in chromatisism.

Yeah, I agree.

What surprised me when I first got into Barry Harris teaching after being a chord tone/arp/subs player was how scale centric it is. It's certainly a different perspective, although in practice you end up playing all the chord tones, subs and chromatics as well. It's all encapsulated.

But the thing that's really useful (I think) is the process of going through a line using principles and really refining the way it works. Of course - you don't need BH for that. But it’s a way of really refining language rather than just blocks of harmony, and as you say has a lot in common with transcription, because you are aiming for a very specific type of sound.

I think that's the real lesson I'm learning from it - attention to detail in terms of line construction - in particular with respect for rhythm and how it relates to the melody and harmony.

[princeplanet]

I dug up my old notes on my own "bebop" scales that I messed with for a coupla years. Which shows my point that one needn't get hung up on just one scale. I mean, just by adding a chromatic note to the major scale gives you 5 different vairations. 10 if you count the "inside out' scale produced by starting the scale on an even numbered note. Check out the table below and see what down beats spell out for each scale. Some Tonic, some Dominant, all different flavours. If you wanna mess with an 8 note scale, why limit yourself to the commonly approved Bebop scales? Roll your own! And then add a second chromatic note, then a third etc etc....


OCTATONIC SCALES

.................................................. ........ODD........EVEN..........ODD.............. ..EVEN


1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 .....c c# d e f g a b ......c d f a .... c# e g b.........F6 ................ A9 rootless


1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7....c d d# e f g a b ......c d# f a... d e g b .........F7.................. G6


1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7** ..c d e f f# g a b...... c e f# a....d f g b.......... D9 (rootless).... G7


1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7.... c d e f g g# a b..... c e g a..... d f g# b....... C6.................. E7b9 rootless


1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7** c d e f g a a# b..... c e g Bb.... d f a b..........C7.................. G9 rootless


** these 2 modes are the same thing a 4th apart - (eg G mixo- g a b c d e f f#)

[pauln]

Yeah but thats not the point i want to learn. I want to learn someting about that typical concept of Bebop Scale and how to practice with them. Because i am a guitarplayer who already can play jazz and bebop, and learned it out of tons of transcription i made from the music. But i am also a teacher and ver interested in Practice Concepts.

As Reg stressed in #31; paraphrasing... "chops first". One has to be out of the weeds (having internalized the physical technical execution) in order to clear mental headroom to improvise a flow of musical judgement. Maybe you are there and seeking more concepts ("soft concepts", see below...).

Concepts are the stuff of improvising, and Boston Joe's #22 about arping up and scaling down is a great one to explore. The ear hears a subsequent higher pitched note as a rise in tension - but this is a secular tension distinguished from harmonic/melodic tension... and bigger intervals up convey greater tension. Likewise, downward movement in pitch is secular resolving, bigger moves more so.

So, arpeggios upward generate more tension than scales upward, and scales downward delay resolution more than arpeggios downward, hmm...

This is a powerfully expressive idea that one may hold conceptually while improvising, deciding when and where to mount and descend the tension/resolution profile you project to the music - this arp up scale down aspect being a secular t/r profile, similar to rhythmic t/r techniques, that when combined with the harmonic/melodic t/r manipulations become mystically and profoundly effective.

The point is that this is not a weeds level integration; it is musical judgement made possible by having risen above the weeds with sufficient internalization. I might call them "soft concepts" that live in the mind while playing, in contrast to "hard concepts" that have taken residence in the hands from time on the instrument. For example if you watch Wes playing, his fingering and hand placement always sets up for the next phrase quite effortlessly in appearance due to his technique ("hard concepts") freeing him to explore and actualize soft concepts.

This distinction becomes clear from transcription playing compared to the sound of the original - once the right notes in the right order and timing are grasped, that is just the foundation from which the right feel and mood is developed through recognition or identification of various soft concepts manifest in the original... A good part of jazz music immersion ear development is all about learning to hear, recognize, and internalize the sounds of the characteristic soft concepts that we interpret as swing, bop, post, etc.