Improv approaches for sus type chords?

[Meggy]

Say, for example, you have a repeating progression of 2 bars of Amaj7 followed by 2 bars of G11 (or G7sus or basically any non-altered dominant type chord with 4th/11th and no 3rd). What cool approaches are there for soloing over the G11? I do find plain old G mixolydian can sound good, but of course the 3rd is included there, and I wonder if that's kind of a weakness in a way, in terms of not accurately reflecting the underlying harmony. So just interested in what things people tend to use in such situations really, cheers!

[ragman1]

This is all right. Font's a bit big but you'll survive.

How to Improvise Over Sus Chords | Jazzadvice

[TOMMO]

Min7 arpeggio from the 5th degree: Dmin7 over G7sus.

[ragman1]

Min7 arpeggio from the 5th degree: Dmin7 over G7sus.

Yes, which is still C maj/G mixo, but if the Dm (dorian) is accentuated it'll sound more sus-like. Triads are good too.

Also Am pent over G7sus sounds clever

[christianm77]

I would say minor up a fifth or major (Lydian) down a tone. Arpeggios and pentatonics work well here.

Sus chords are basically major chords with a funny bass note.... C/D G/A etc

Emphasising the notes of Dm7 and Fmajor7 etc seems to bring out the quality of the chord.

OTOH if you don’t do that at least a bit on all dominants/ii v’s you’re missing a trick.

One good bit of advice I got early on is that a ii v i is Vsus V I. And the V bit can just be how you connect to the next chord.

Obviously nonfunctional sus chords don’t need to resolve, so you want to emphasise the b7 9 11 13. These two subs do that.

Btw check out the start of Wayne’s solo on Yes and No, classic use of pentatonic modes.

[GO'C]

You can develop lines using chromatic approach to any of the Dom 7sus4 chord tones, and dispense with scales altogether.

12 chromatic approaches:
Single from above
Single from below
Single from above single from below
Single from below single from above

Double from above
Double from below
Double from above double from below
Double from below double from above

Single from above double from below
Single from below double from above
Double from above single from below
Double from below single from above

I learned about this when I studied jazz improvisation with Charlie Banacos.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[supermaxx]

G11 implies at 3rd so you're fine on that note. The chord reads 1,3,5,b7,9,11 or G,B,D,F,A,C so it's basically just a dominant chord. Now check out the b7, 9, 11, and 13 (F, A, C, E). This is the upper structure of a G7sus (G13, G11 or whatever you want to call it). That is just an Fmaj7 chord, or a Dm9 without the root. Some people prefer to think of it as the maj7 and others the min7 but they are the same.

So...start by working on your Fmaj7 arpeggios over the neck. Sometimes it's nice to use the pattern 7, 1, 3, 5. Those will be the notes that sounds like G11. Forget about mixolydian or whatever scalar approach you're using.

[Boston Joe]

Btw check out the start of Wayne’s solo on Yes and No, classic use of pentatonic modes.

Yes! You could get old sniffing out all the great licks in that solo.

[Reg]

Try and play a chord solo.... solo with chords below your top line.

So instead of just thinking melodically think... harmonically, which will result with a collection of different melodic approaches which will have implied organization with function...

[emanresu]

2nd degree minor pentatonic with all those gliches it comes with?

[whiskey02]

Treat them the same as any other chord quality. Play melodic figues drawing heavily from the chord tones, triads built from the chord tones, chromatc figures that highlight chord tones. There are no special chords that cannot or should not be dealt with in this manner.
I think some people, not saying you in this case, ask roundabout questions when their real point is, “ what should I do when I really don’t know the chord tones”? The answer never varies; learn how to spell the chord.

[Reg]

OK.... the standard approaches are,

1) the actual chords as G7sus to Gmaj7... which is Gmixo and Gmaj... the big targets of F and F#... the basic difference. This is cool and very vanilla.
But if you have skills to show... oops, I mean develop great musical melodic lines and develop them'

There are a few options... G7sus to Gmaj7 With Gmixo and blue notes
You can play off the related II- or D-7, D- pentatonic... G A C D F
You can push G dom pentatonic... G A B D F which can open G Dorian

You can open the MM door,
Play off D-ma7 or Dmm.
Use extended relatives... 3rd above and 3rd below..... Fma7#11 #5 and B-7b5 nat. 9 (6th degree of Dmm.)

There are more but... you need to be able to create movement between target notes or target chords the further you get away from the basic reference. Tension release, call and answer... create chord patterns....

Most of these are fairly simple when you have your technical skills together, but if your still figuring out what the note collections are and how to finger them on the fretboard... and then actually apply the approach

There are also the same options from the Gmaj7....Ionian, lydian, related and extended chords and same with pentatonics... then doing the same thing using MM references.

If this sound complicated... your not ready... but we could start with simple relationships etc...

[christianm77]

Treat them the same as any other chord quality. Play melodic figues drawing heavily from the chord tones, triads built from the chord tones, chromatc figures that highlight chord tones. There are no special chords that cannot or should not be dealt with in this manner.
I think some people, not saying you in this case, ask roundabout questions when their real point is, “ what should I do when I really don’t know the chord tones”? The answer never varies; learn how to spell the chord.

This is such a good point. The basic level is expressing the vanilla chord changes as a single line.

So for sus, playing a sus triad 1-4-5 or a 7sus4 arp 1-4-5-b7

Later we can expand the options to subs and scales.

[Meggy]

G11 implies at 3rd so you're fine on that note. The chord reads 1,3,5,b7,9,11 or G,B,D,F,A,C so it's basically just a dominant chord. Now check out the b7, 9, 11, and 13 (F, A, C, E). This is the upper structure of a G7sus (G13, G11 or whatever you want to call it). That is just an Fmaj7 chord, or a Dm9 without the root. Some people prefer to think of it as the maj7 and others the min7 but they are the same.

So...start by working on your Fmaj7 arpeggios over the neck. Sometimes it's nice to use the pattern 7, 1, 3, 5. Those will be the notes that sounds like G11. Forget about mixolydian or whatever scalar approach you're using.

Cheers - re the meaning of "G11" - I always took it to not have the 3rd (Ted Greene's books say as much, to give one source for that), but I do understand the your logic. I do tend to think scalar a lot of the time - that's just me, and it works for me when I do, but I like what you're saying re Fmaj7 arps. Possible to have more than one approach in the arsenal of course!

[Meggy]

OK.... the standard approaches are,

1) the actual chords as G7sus to Gmaj7... which is Gmixo and Gmaj... the big targets of F and F#... the basic difference. This is cool and very vanilla.
But if you have skills to show... oops, I mean develop great musical melodic lines and develop them'

There are a few options... G7sus to Gmaj7 With Gmixo and blue notes
You can play off the related II- or D-7, D- pentatonic... G A C D F
You can push G dom pentatonic... G A B D F which can open G Dorian

You can open the MM door,
Play off D-ma7 or Dmm.
Use extended relatives... 3rd above and 3rd below..... Fma7#11 #5 and B-7b5 nat. 9 (6th degree of Dmm.)

There are more but... you need to be able to create movement between target notes or target chords the further you get away from the basic reference. Tension release, call and answer... create chord patterns....

Most of these are fairly simple when you have your technical skills together, but if your still figuring out what the note collections are and how to finger them on the fretboard... and then actually apply the approach

There are also the same options from the Gmaj7....Ionian, lydian, related and extended chords and same with pentatonics... then doing the same thing using MM references.

If this sound complicated... your not ready... but we could start with simple relationships etc...

I can understand what you're saying fine, and it doesn't seem too complicated, and I like the idea to use MM - so cheers, great and interesting stuff as always.

[Meggy]

This is such a good point. The basic level is expressing the vanilla chord changes as a single line.

So for sus, playing a sus triad 1-4-5 or a 7sus4 arp 1-4-5-b7

Later we can expand the options to subs and scales.

Maybe a weakness of mine - I tend to come in at scale level, and then start digging out the chord tones, arps and "interesting notes". I am big on playing the changes though. We find ways - do appreciate the food for thought though, I must say.

[Meggy]

Just to add - thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply, I will work through and consider everything mentioned, and much appreciated.

[JakeAcci]

First line of defense against sus IMO is reinterpreting it.

See G7sus4, think Fmaj7/G or Dm7/G

I like to think 'up in thirds' for a lot of harmony to get more 'extended' sounds.

Dm F Am C Em G Bdim

or Dm7 Fmaj7 Am7 Cmaj7 etc

major thirds over sus accessed this way can sound like 'extension's to my ears - actually the 13 on the Dm7/G.