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I think I should also note from the first post referring to Coryell that he was a devout Buddhist. So some of his statements had to be taken in context to what we were working on at the time or over time. He would say things like "quit playing like a student". I realized later on what he was saying is don't start a solo from the root note of the chord. Learning "all of them" as far as tunes... I believe he meant to emphasize the importance of knowing tunes. The more the better. Believe me he knew a lot of tunes. As far as "utilize don't analyze"...Larry felt there was a lot of crap out there that would confuse or waste a lot of students time better spent on actually playing/improvising over tunes. He was always "do you know this one? You need to learn this one. Huge on Charlie Parker "that's where the language comes from" Also the importance of "You need to get a gig" " we 've got to find you a piano player". Get out and play was a frequent mantra. He was a great teacher it just took me a while to understand what he was saying some times. I could go on ...but it was an honor to know and study with him...
Last edited by jaco; 03-23-2018 at 05:37 AM.
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03-23-2018 05:21 AM
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There is certainly a lot of truth to this.
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Bear in mind that college is one of the best times to practice. Professional musicians often have less time to practise because they are too busy working, or other life commitments catch up with them.
One thing I have realised over the years is that extremely focussed practice activities are really great for advancing ones playing but it is impossible for me to do more that about an hour of this in one sitting. I like the interleaved practice thing - slots of no more than 5m with a very specific focus. I find that this is a lot easier to slot into a busy life.
Other low intensity activities - just playing scales to warm up, transcription, listening, improvising or writing, working on arrangements etc can take up longer stretches of time.
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Larry was a man after my own heart.... or I am man after Larry’s heart I suppose! Originally Posted by jaco
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Sustained, organized and focused practice is on the list of things I wish I was better at in life.
Meanwhile, since it was brought up, I just posted some audio clips, from a gig earlier this week, in the showcase section of this forum.
I guess after a certain number of posts it may be helpful to show what you're actually doing.
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Hey rpjazz guitar... checked out your clips, very cool, nice. So what did you think... I mean your at a jam, right, it's not really a gig where you need to cover and entertain the audience. The rhythm section sounded a little, don't take this wrong... but somewhat moment to moment and vanilla.... I checked out 2xs and really can remember anything, maybe the off the downbeat rhythmic kicks you and the drummer hinted at.
You sound like you can play, I've ran Jams for years.... the one chorus or 1/2 chorus approach sucks, what's the point. Probable to have students etc... pay etc... and help the band and club make some $...
How is this going to help promote Jazz... Definitely not in a jazz style and tradition. If you want to make a point , maybe force your hand a little.... make a musical statement where YOU get heard and open some ears. There are a few ways to do this... it usually involves playing with much more feeling and create some excitement... You need to shape your solo, (maybe not the right term when only taking 1/2 chorus), but have a bigger first statement, if you don't have the chops... use a rhythmic voicing lick that sets the table, where and what you want to say... get the attention of the audience.
You'll get more time when the audience gets involved... and maybe even wake up the house band.
When you only have short amount of time.... play big out front, then back down and build all the way to the end.... don't play short statements in small range and wind up soft.
Getting back to over analysis... this is pretty simple situation where being able to recognize musical things... and being able have skills to THINK about what's going on both musically and physically and have choices of what to play. Or not.
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Thanks for the feedback, Reg.
Those recordings were made at a gig at a restaurant. We do a couple of small group tunes at the beginning of the night because one of the horn players arrives late, and to warm up. I think the beginning of the BL solo was cut off -it was a full chorus. Just Friends was also a full chorus. It's an octet and the leader gives more solo time to the horns, so they're laying out a little less of the time, percentage-wise. On a moderate tempo 32 bar tune, you get a chorus if you're in the rhythm section. Horns may get two.
I agree with you about the rhythm section, and I include myself. And, it wasn't helped by the mic location for this recording -- those piano parts would have sounded better lower in the mix.
On the shape of the solo: For better or worse, what I'm trying to do is this. I often want to start quietly, with the rhythm section coming down in volume and intensity and the solo being sparse. So the audience's attention is focused on a few solo notes and the rhythm section ticking along. That's hard to do in the octet, because most solos are played loud. As a practical matter, I may have to begin with a loud enough pickup that everybody understands that I'm soloing, so nobody else starts soloing. Then, I can drop the volume. But, if the other rhythm section players don't follow it right away (and they often don't) I have to stay sparser for longer than I'd like to get the intensity of the band where I want it- just ticking along at first.
This may or may not be jazz as it is widely understood. But, I have stopped caring about that. It's what I hear in my head.
Anyway, once the intensity and volume are where I want them, I can start to build. Partly, I do it this way because I don't have the high gear chops that some players (like you, for example) have. It's not that I can't move my fingers that fast, rather, it's mostly because I don't hear the music that way. I tend to build with quick changes of octave, high notes that I try to get searing with the tone, and my vocabulary, however limited, of rhythmic and harmonic variation. I developed my tone for this reason -- to make sure those high notes are thick and intense (well, at least, that's what I'm going for). I'll occasionally end a solo at a high energy level, but, more often, I'll wind it down -- trying to make it completely clear that the solo is done - so that it's unmistakable. Depends on the tune and the mood of the night.
In a rare longer solo, I like to vary the dynamics very broadly, but that works better in my own, smaller, groups than this octet. It comes down to whether the drummer will follow the desired dynamics (and if I can communicate what I'm going for). I have a hand signal for it, but sometimes the leader doesn't point at me to solo until the chorus has already started and it's too late for signals. Other times, the rhythm section guys are looking somewhere else and don't know that it's my turn to solo. It happens. My idea is to create drama with dynamics as much as any other component of the music. It requires that the other players are primed for it.
Long post on this subject, especially since nobody asked. And it's a thread-hijack. But maybe there's a role for this sort of discussion. How are people trying to shape their solos?Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-24-2018 at 01:18 PM.
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I think shaping solos is a great topic. I haven’t heard your clips yet (they won’t play on my iPad for some reason) but I’ll check them out on the PC later.
My approach is to try and start with lower/simpler/shorter phrases and build up to higher/longer/more complex phrases towards the end. It’s not that much a conscious thing while I’m actually playing, but seems to come out that way somehow.
It’s not really fixed in stone though, just a sort of general guideline.
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Somehow I missed your post. Originally Posted by supermaxx
I think you are right - there is a overarching framework to all of this that you start to see, but trying to get the overall picture early on is a real waste of time and energy. Players need to focus on things they can apply.
You need to go through the practicalities of making and listening to music - which I think is what you are saying....
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Yea, thanks rpjazz. All sounds good. ? so gig wasn't a jam and the rhythm section just didn't give a shit.
I can tell you from years of gigging experience, festivals to local dives.... jazz just doesn't really happen unless the "rhythm section has it together, and that includes you.... guitar is generally a rhythm section player. Sure we get to solo... but horns sit out except when playing background or counter and groove lines. Which with an octet.... they should be doing. And hopefully not having to have written out parts etc... Even with just one horn, I play background lines with the horn during many tunes... to raise the level of the music and just to have variations of textures and sound.
So getting back to the shape of your solo, sure that is one possible approach.... but you need many more approaches.
On a different thread, Truthhertz was getting into space and shape, how one can control the shape of space within that form, he was trying to use non-functional motion, (function is just the power of musical motion), anyway the point was and is... there are standard organizational approaches for how one breaks up that physical space. (This is another one of those thinking , over analysis etc...) but my example of big out front, then drop and build until end is one of those organized shapes... that has organization for a specific reason. In your case, I thought you were at a jam and needed to use a shape that would help you get heard and maybe get more space, (and like I said wake up the rhythm section). Looks like I was wrong about the situation, sorry.
After your able to play... the notes, basically when you can play through all the tune in any number of styles and still listen and interact etc... you need to start thinking about... the performance and how the audience(s) are going to hear and feel that performance.
So you begin to understand articulations, dynamics, form and how to shape that form. You can play the perfect notes etc... but if they aren't played at the right time... which is what being able to shape the form of music is, anyway you or a few other musicians may be the only ones to even hear.
Until you become someone who has an audience, a following etc... your not going to have the audience paying attention unless you make them.
Tone is important and helps with slower melodic lines etc... but that is more of just what instrument your playing etc... Guitarist are always working with their tone, it's disorder we all have. If you want to get into this ... the shape thing, we can. I don't think your posts are long at all... if you have something to say, one liners are fun, but usually don't mean much without some long posts.
Reg
I think I remember you saying your in the SF bay are... if so you could come to one of my gigs.... sit in etc.... most of the rhythm sections I work with.... are really good. (or even just get together)
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I have to say I agree with Reg with respect to the rhythm section.
Not sure what you can do with that info. But you need a responsive rhythm section to play music beyond a very surface level...
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Def take up his sitting in offer on gigs offer. Playing with great drummers etc is the most important thing.
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I'm in the East Bay. I'd love to hear one of your gigs. Can you let me know where you're playing?
Underlying all of this is the question, what music are you trying to make?
I have all but given up on trying to be a well-rounded jazz player. I got as far with that as I could and, now, with just a few years left as a player, I'm trying to focus on getting the sounds in my head to come out of the speaker. I could succeed wildly at that and still fail a jazz performance course at Berklee. I posted those two solos because, for better or worse, they're pretty close to what I'm trying to do. I was curious about what others would think of this style, since I view it as idiosyncratic. I also thought, well, I've been running my mouth here quite a bit-- people have a right to know what I sound like.
My own groups play only Brazilian music and are, mostly, rehearsal bands with pro players.
But, I like the octet. It was started by friends. The arrangements are challenging to read -- and I've gotten something out of that. Because it requires a weekly commitment to rehearse and it's important to get as much continuity as possible in personnel, we may not always have the strongest players possible. I don't complain; that goes for me as well. I also play in a big band that does Buddy Rich's old charts and the octet's charts are generally harder to read.
Part of it is that the Buddy Rich arranger really knew how to make a chart readable. Part of it is that the Buddy Rich arranger didn't expect too much from the guitarist. The rhythms are sometimes atypical, but there are no fast passages where the guitar is functioning as a horn. The octet has two arrangers in the band, one of whom has a higher opinion of my reading ability than I deserve. There are sometimes fast passages in 16th notes which do not lay well on guitar. I can usually figure out a way to play them, but it's hard. Sometimes I have to skip a passage.
As an aside, a pro guitarist friend recently had a big band gig and spent part of the afternoon crossing sections out of the guitar chart. It would be quick big band style hits with every single hit a different chord written out on a staff, note by note. As far as I know, nobody complained that he wasn't playing them. In the octet, I have the luxury of time to decode them, plot out a way to play them (or as close as possible) or just pick whatever notes I can get to and play those.
I digress. All of this is by way of saying, the octet rhythm section gives a shit and is doing as well as they can. And, these two tunes were the warmups before the full band started reading arrangements. The challenge for the guitar as a member of the rhythm section is that the music calls more for a piano comp than a guitar comp, if you had to pick one. So, the piano becomes primary and the guitarist spends the evening trying to figure out how to contribute something. You don't want people thinking, I wish the guitarist would lay out!
I posted some Brazilian music some time back. That was from a situation where I was lucky enough to be invited to jam with the teachers. At some point, I'll post some more.
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Thanks Christian, I think.
rpjazz... I'm not trying to dish etc... it's just the way it is. I can tell out front... if you need to rehearse something because you can't play it...It's great practice to a point, but having to just play the music or arrangements when you see it will really help get your performance thing together. I get it, no one wants to sound lousy, but that's the only real way of getting those skills together. And low key restaurant gigs are perfect.... they are a rehearsal.
A note... most of the latin bands I gig with... I'm reading single lines lines with the the horns or playing montunos. Do you have the montuno thing together... all chord patterns have montunos, they help lock the rhythm section and can really make the music come alive.
The reason many want a piano to comp.... is.... because most guitarist suck at comping etc... I've done this rant before.
The trick is to.... comp better than the pianist, or at least as well. The guitar leaves much more room for heads and solos. But you have to be able to COMP. In the end... you'll learn how to interact with the piano and become a section. If you have a few soloist.... you can't have the same backing track going on for ever take turns laying out etc... There are always a few different comping parts.... start working them out
I'm not just saying this.... I used this approach as a kid back in the 60's and early 70's playing with the old dudes with all kinds of gigs. The only way to hear players were to go see them... etc.. Records cost $, and there was no other options.
If you don't read that well.... You already know...
Here is a latin tune recorded Sightreading verbally talked then recorded, I played a little groove line during the head and just went from there...( the solo sucks... but who cares)We just did 1 take... and I think I made a vid of playing spain with montuno or pick a tune and I'll make another one... Doesn't need to be a latin tune... I can just play in a latin style and adjust changes to work etc...
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The latin band sounds good. That line you played was easier to hear on the head at the end. I often play that sort of thing with palm muting. There's a technique I love for busier montunos, which involves getting the right wrist popping like a machine. It sounds great, but I can't physically sustain it through a tune.
I agree about the rhythm section.
At my level, the trick is to work effectively with a pianist no matter what he's doing. I play fairly regularly with four different pianists. One ignores the guitar and likes to be LOUD. When I asked him to turn down at a gig one time, he responded by telling me about a dream he'd had where he had sand in his mouth and couldn't speak. Not a joke. He didn't turn down. I finally figured out that one of his two amps had a port on the side pointing right at me. I covered it with my band book, which is heavy, and partly solved the problem. He never noticed. He's a nice person and a good player in his own way, but making space for a guitarist isn't something he worries about.
A second player is much more considerate and is accommodating to the guitar most of the time. He's on the recordings I posted. In fact he made them for his own use and critiqued his playing. He thought he was too loud. I would not be surprised if he also thought he was too busy and too invariant. He is the regular pianist in my own groups. He spent 10 years as a working pro pop musician back in the day and, more recently, fell in love with Brazilian music.
The other two players I play with less often. Both long term pros. When they play, there is plenty of space and fitting piano and guitar together is nearly effortless. Neither one is likely to chunk out block chords. There's more air and subtlety than that. With one of them, we have an understanding that the goal is to create one single comping pattern out of the two instruments. The music is all Brazilian, never swing. It's easiest to do it during the bass solo because you're playing sparsely anyway. There are various ways to do it. A simple one, for somebody that wants to try it, is to have one instrument play in the first half of the bar and the other instrument play in the second half.
The differences among drummers are even more striking. I barely know where to begin. My joke is that someday I'd like to have a drummer who shows up without drums. Oftentimes band members will complain about drum volume to each other out of earshot of the drummer. I've had drummers get angry at being asked to play quietly and lecture me on how dynamic their playing is - even after other band members complained. I've had drummers tell me about how they're using the lightest sticks possible -- and take no responsibility for the fact that they're still too loud. With some drummers, I give the hand signal to quiet down and they do -- but are still way too loud -- not seeming to be able to conceptualize what quiet means to somebody else.
And then there are a couple I know who listen carefully and are willing to come down to a whisper. Proving that it's possible.
In case this is helpful -- the trick to getting a good drummer (and bassist) to commit to a project is to engage the bassist and drummer together. They have to want to play with each other. There has to be mutual respect. The quickest way to lose a one of them is to have one be a weaker player than the other. If those two are playing well together, everything else becomes dramatically easier.
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Cool, sounds like you have your plan... best of luck.
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Yes indeed.... Really the guitar is just the icing on the cake in that sense. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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