The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Posts 76 to 95 of 95
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    Come on cosmic I know you got the answer...give it up.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    So, if I ran into the rare opportunity of assembling a combo for a one shot, no rehearsal gig that would pay $1000, I could afford to hire all great local players that were free that date.

    Do you think I would do a couple sets of the usual standards that everyone has memorized, or, would I jump at the chance to have great players venture out on newer or different material that they had all heard, but needed charts for reference? What do you think the audience might prefer?

    Just trying to create a real world scenario. I truly think lots of people underestimate how well good musicians besides guitarists can read charts with little struggle at all.

    How many times do you think sight reading musicians run through a new previously unseen chart at a rehearsal?
    I have been in that sort of situation. I hired great players and did challenging music that I'd been wanting to play.

    If I had it to do over, I'd have picked tunes that the audience might have liked better.

  4. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I have been in that sort of situation. I hired great players and did challenging music that I'd been wanting to play.

    If I had it to do over, I'd have picked tunes that the audience might have liked better.
    I am talking more about newer material than more challenging. Hell, to me the older standards are often the most challenging. I know the audience doesn't want to be left behind with stuff that's too complex, but lots of them don't want to hear 80 year old tunes either. My whole point is about there still being value in using charts sometimes, rather than depending on a totally internalized repertoire.

  5. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    So, if I ran into the rare opportunity of assembling a combo for a one shot, no rehearsal gig that would pay $1000, I could afford to hire all great local players that were free that date.

    Do you think I would do a couple sets of the usual standards that everyone has memorized, or, would I jump at the chance to have great players venture out on newer or different material that they had all heard, but needed charts for reference? What do you think the audience might prefer?
    This question is pretty hypothetical, really.

    What players? What originals? What venue? What audience?

    TBH I would always rather not put musicians in a position of sight-reading charts on a listening gig.

    I tend to be a guy that would always book my working band, because we've been playing the tunes we've been playing for ages and it sounds better than even the best sight-reading could because we are inside those tunes (some of those groups do still use charts for reference, although we are aiming to get off them). We might add a fancy guest if we felt it would get punters in, and obviously if we felt they would be simpatico with the project musically.

    And bear in mind, that's coming from London, where the musicians are well known as among the best sight readers in the world - we are the ultimate guys for putting something together in zero time because there's no fucking money. It's about the only thing we do better than NYC lol. The flip-side of that is rehearsals aren't really a thing, and much of our music never gets beyond a basic competent level.

    (I say we - my reading isn't great, but I know loads of great readers who can play anything you put in front of them.)

    What we admire about New York (among other things) is the fact that those guys rehearse.

    I kind of feel the scratch band thing is limited musically. I know people who book Mike Stern, Eric Harland, whoever for a date and that stuff is always a bit lame. OTOH I know people who've booked Chris Potter to do a UK tour with them, and that's cool... but I also think a group of musicians who play together is so much cooler. That's how Phronesis got so good... They came up together. And of course they have that record where Guiliana depped for the tour, and that's cool too... but that's not the core of what they built.

    I believe strongly in thinking tribally, not individualistically. The band is really important, should more than the sum of its parts, like Red Garland, Paul Chambers & Philly Joe.

    Just trying to create a real world scenario. I truly think lots of people underestimate how well good musicians besides guitarists can read charts with little struggle at all.
    I think to be a real world scenario it would be either $1000 a man or play whatever rep you want... But that's my experience. Maybe the $1000 jazz club gig is a thing.

    That said, I think people are happy to hear originals. Of course, it depends on the original, style of music etc. I play plenty of originals with my Gypsy Jazz group on functions.

    Sight reading new charts on a background gig is fine.

    How many times do you think sight reading musicians run through a new previously unseen chart at a rehearsal?
    Zero. It can be done. Doesn't mean it should be done on a gig.

  6. #80
    Interesting discussion. Like to hear what real players think about it.

    I'm not a jazzer per se, but have more jazz-ish opportunities around Christmas than any other time probably. How do you guys deal with holiday gigs? Surely it's tons of tunes you don't have memorized? You can't really just play them straight anyway, can you?

    Anyway, I love reading down tunes I'm not really interested in fully learning. Secret pleasure. Need to memorize more standard rep to be sure, but the on the fly, head arrangements, from a chart, are the fun part for me in other styles as well. Just about anything is fun one time through.

  7. #81

    User Info Menu

    If you don't sightread..... your going to miss a lot of music and gigs. If you can't perform using your ears, your also going to miss music and gigs.

    When I'm running a gig, I'm the person who works the audience. I generally don't sightread. I have different books with different tunes and arrangements, different instrumentation, etc... I generally have all that material memorized. I also add and update books for gigs. I always re-arrange standards, Music gets old... sure we as musicians can entertain, create great solos, interact and develop tunes on stage etc...

    But it's very cool to play new arrangement of standards... and some originals ,(helps with getting rid of CDs),

    You can sightread... if your still able to interact with the audience while performing new material. If your glued to the chart, (or your fretboard), Or your in some other world with your eyes closed... what's the difference. OK... I get it, it's part of one's style and show.

    If the music is it... your goal is to create and elevate the music. The chart is just to create a basic framework, and that's what your selling...or you have higher goals, and it's not a selling thing, and the audience is just lucky to be there... OK get rid of the charts. Who cares... memorize the material. Different gigs require different skills...have them all together best you can.

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    Hey Matt... holiday arrangements. I have jazz arrangements of Christmas tunes... and you can always plug melodies into Forms and pick a style, (head arrangement style). Usually some melodic adjustments, but that what we as jazz musicians do.

  9. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Interesting discussion. Like to hear what real players think about it.

    I'm not a jazzer per se, but have more jazz-ish opportunities around Christmas than any other time probably. How do you guys deal with holiday gigs? Surely it's tons of tunes you don't have memorized? You can't really just play them straight anyway, can you?
    Well, Christmas Song nonwithstanding, most of this stuff is buskable by ear, which is much more fun (IMO) even if you make some mistakes. We actually know this music BETTER than the standards rep in a sense.

    (And if you can't hear the changes to Santa Claus is Coming to Town, why try and play bebop?)

    My own personal idea on tunes is to make playing by memory and playing by ear the same thing. I think this is how the good players do it.

    Also reading. Again it's hardly a big read unless someone does an arrangement. Merry Gentlemen in 7?

    Anyway, I love reading down tunes I'm not really interested in fully learning. Secret pleasure. Need to memorize more standard rep to be sure, but the on the fly, head arrangements, from a chart, are the fun part for me in other styles as well. Just about anything is fun one time through.
    Reading is fun. I wish I did more of it in a way.

    People say that the best way to get gigs is to be a strong reader, but best way to be a strong reader is to do lots of reading gigs. It's a chicken and egg vibe so you en up having to take the plunge sooner or later.

    But there's reading... And there's reading....

  10. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well, Christmas Song nonwithstanding, most of this stuff is buskable by ear, which is much more fun (IMO) even if you make some mistakes. We actually know this music BETTER than the standards rep in a sense.

    (And if you can't hear the change to Santa Claus is Coming to Town, why try and play bebop?)

    My own personal idea on tunes is to make playing by memory and playing by ear the same thing. I think this is how the good players do it.

    Also reading. Again it's hardly a big read unless someone does an arrangement. Merry Gentlemen in 7?



    Reading is fun. I wish I did more of it in a way.

    People say that the best way to get gigs is to be a strong reader, but best way to be a strong reader is to do lots of reading gigs. It's a chicken and egg vibe so you en up having to take the plunge sooner or later.

    But there's reading... And there's reading....
    Well, I was thinking more like carols with non standard changes. Hal Leonard's Christmas Real Book has jazz changes for all the carols. Personally, these are like crack for me. Again, i'm not really interested in personally arranging that many carols myself for any reason, but they are great fun with a bass player once a year.

  11. #85

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This question is pretty hypothetical, really.

    What players? What originals? What venue? What audience?

    TBH I would always rather not put musicians in a position of sight-reading charts on a listening gig.

    I tend to be a guy that would always book my working band, because we've been playing the tunes we've been playing for ages and it sounds better than even the best sight-reading could because we are inside those tunes (some of those groups do still use charts for reference, although we are aiming to get off them). We might add a fancy guest if we felt it would get punters in, and obviously if we felt they would be simpatico with the project musically.

    And bear in mind, that's coming from London, where the musicians are well known as among the best sight readers in the world - we are the ultimate guys for putting something together in zero time because there's no fucking money. It's about the only thing we do better than NYC lol. The flip-side of that is rehearsals aren't really a thing, and much of our music never gets beyond a basic competent level.

    (I say we - my reading isn't great, but I know loads of great readers who can play anything you put in front of them.)

    What we admire about New York (among other things) is the fact that those guys rehearse.

    I kind of feel the scratch band thing is limited musically. I know people who book Mike Stern, Eric Harland, whoever for a date and that stuff is always a bit lame. OTOH I know people who've booked Chris Potter to do a UK tour with them, and that's cool... but I also think a group of musicians who play together is so much cooler. That's how Phronesis got so good... They came up together. And of course they have that record where Guiliana depped for the tour, and that's cool too... but that's not the core of what they built.

    I believe strongly in thinking tribally, not individualistically. The band is really important, should more than the sum of its parts, like Red Garland, Paul Chambers & Philly Joe.



    I think to be a real world scenario it would be either $1000 a man or play whatever rep you want... But that's my experience. Maybe the $1000 jazz club gig is a thing.

    That said, I think people are happy to hear originals. Of course, it depends on the original, style of music etc. I play plenty of originals with my Gypsy Jazz group on functions.

    Sight reading new charts on a background gig is fine.



    Zero. It can be done. Doesn't mean it should be done on a gig.
    Wow, I didn't know we were rubbing shoulders with a $1000 a night per band member pro. I will have to stop taking your posts so lightly.

  12. #86

    User Info Menu

    A chart for my next gig;

    Using Charts vs Memorizing Jazz Standards?-fl-studio-24-jpg

  13. #87

    User Info Menu

    Thought of this thread again last night, on one of the most rewarding gigs I've ever had the privilege of playing.

    Not here to crow but to say that, happily and admittedly, the presence of three sets of simple chord charts didn't prevent 'jazz' from happening.

    When I asked - between sets - about the need for charts on what are essentially Trad tunes, one of the two horn players replied, "I'm like a drummer; I just need to see the structure of the tune."
    Last edited by destinytot; 12-22-2017 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Removal of 'modal interchange'

  14. #88

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Wow, I didn't know we were rubbing shoulders with a $1000 a night per band member pro. I will have to stop taking your posts so lightly.
    Oh, stop being such a troll.

    You know what I mean. I was going on your value in your post.

    Unless you meant $1000 for the band, in which case it’s a little hard to talk about cos fees depend a lot on where you are, plus I have the exchange rate to factor in. But I would think of that as a good fee (depending on the size of the band obv.)

    In this case, I think most pro musicians would be up for a rehearsal in principle (unless it's someone famous, perhaps)
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-22-2017 at 08:29 AM.

  15. #89

    User Info Menu

    Btw cosmic looking at your other posts I would see that you were more interested in the original music/contemporary side of things.

    I have to say that it can some times be very frustrating leading projects of this kind in terms of organising rehearsals etc.

    The musicians I most frequently work with, most of whom are DEMON sight readers who play sessions and shows etc are often very unwilling to read stuff on a listening gig given the option.

    I understand and respect this. They could do it, but they’d rather not, and would rather play music they know they can play comfortably and be able to listen and interact with the band. Even relatively simple stuff.

    But it would still be normal for those guys to use charts on gig. (Personally I would aim to be off charts as much as possible.)

    That’s a bit different to your Tuesday night reading rehearsal band vibe. Sometimes the leader will call difficult stuff, and we all enter into it with a spirit of adventure.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-22-2017 at 08:49 AM.

  16. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Btw cosmic looking at your other posts I would see that you were more interested in the original music/contemporary side of things.

    I have to say that it can some times be very frustrating leading projects of this kind in terms of organising rehearsals etc.

    The musicians I most frequently work with, most of whom are DEMON sight readers who play sessions and shows etc are often very unwilling to read stuff on a listening gig given the option.

    I understand and respect this. They could do it, but they’d rather not, and would rather play music they know they can play comfortably and be able to listen and interact with the band. Even relatively simple stuff.

    But it would still be normal for those guys to use charts on gig. (Personally I would aim to be off charts as much as possible.)

    That’s a bit different to your Tuesday night reading rehearsal band vibe. Sometimes the leader will call difficult stuff, and we all enter into it with a spirit of adventure.
    I never mentioned originals, never define contemporary to mean complex. I understand what you are saying, and you being in London, having access to musicians, and probably one of the busier jazz scenes in your whole country, you probably have a perception far different than most locales in the U.S.

    I think my example and basically whole post was lost on you, I apologize, I don't try to make a case for anyone outside the U.S. I'm not an expert on the global scene. I'm usually speaking for the average American guy who has no strong jazz scene if you live outside NY, LA, Chicago, or other major metro areas. I'm never going to claim my examples are the status quo in an active jazz scene...but they might be a reflection of 75% of the Americans in this forum.

  17. #91

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I never mentioned originals, never define contemporary to mean complex. I understand what you are saying, and you being in London, having access to musicians, and probably one of the busier jazz scenes in your whole country, you probably have a perception far different than most locales in the U.S.

    I think my example and basically whole post was lost on you, I apologize, I don't try to make a case for anyone outside the U.S. I'm not an expert on the global scene. I'm usually speaking for the average American guy who has no strong jazz scene if you live outside NY, LA, Chicago, or other major metro areas. I'm never going to claim my examples are the status quo in an active jazz scene...but they might be a reflection of 75% of the Americans in this forum.
    I think it might be a similar situation outside the cities here too TBH

  18. #92

    User Info Menu

    Use charts when you practice, but use your ears when you play.

  19. #93

    User Info Menu

    I don't use charts when I practice. If I use charts to learn a tune, it's harder to get off them than if I start by ear.

    Sometimes it's unavoidable, but for standards I always start from recordings.

  20. #94

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sometimes it's unavoidable, but for standards I always start from recordings.
    me too, the plural being key. I recently re-learned "Everything Happens To Me" and it really drove home to me how many different ways there are to play these songs. Chet Baker, Monk and Aebersold all use somewhat different changes on the second half of the A. There's no one right way to play that, but knowing all the options will help me on any gig where I play that tune.

  21. #95

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    me too, the plural being key. I recently re-learned "Everything Happens To Me" and it really drove home to me how many different ways there are to play these songs. Chet Baker, Monk and Aebersold all use somewhat different changes on the second half of the A. There's no one right way to play that, but knowing all the options will help me on any gig where I play that tune.
    I've had a similar experience with Autumn in New York... It's nice to have all those options, and work out a version of the song based on what appeals to me...

    And you can make educated suggestions about changes and so on.... That can be quite fun for other musicians if they are used to playing tunes one way all the time.

    Checking out the sheet music is a good idea too if you can....