The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 60
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    When you play solos in the bebop style or any other style where the emphasis is on outlining the harmony do you:
    a- Consciously think of the chords you're playing over and rely on your patterns and vocabulary for that chord/harmonic segment.
    or
    b- Pre-hear lines you're playing almost melodically in such a way that if you transcribed what you played you'll find you played chord tones at least on rhythmically strong beats of each bar but those notes weren't chosen consciously at the time you played them?

    Now, I know these are the two extremes of the spectrum. For example you could be doing "a" but altering the patterns and vocabulary in the moment, as such these practiced stuff becomes a source of inspiration to pre-hear similar variations while not getting lost in the form.
    Do you think development as an improviser is really the struggle to get from "a" to "b"? Or there is always a need for "a", since you always need to get new stuff and ideas in your ears by practicing and using them consciously at first?
    If "a" is 1 and "b" is 10. Let's say for songs that you are very familiar with, where would you say you are in that spectrum most of the time?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    I think for me it really depends on how well I know the tune. A tune that I really have down would probably see me using more of (b), but a tune that I'm reading, or haven't played very much probably gets more of (a).

    I'm probably in (a) land more than (b), but I'm trying to get to (b).

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    A and b are the same thing for me. I do play what I already know and worked out beforehand, and pre hear it precisely because of that. Sometimes id experiment and surprise myself with new stuff, but mostly licks i practiced. Your fingers usually are ahead of your mind, its a subconscious thing. All im concern with is the delivery: the tone, timing, attitude. The rest doesnt matter that much.

  5. #4
    I see how "a" and "b" can be hard to distinguish sometimes in the way I posed the question. But what I really mean by "b" is the freer stuff. Things that are not very immediately linked to what was practiced in the woodshed. Things that are derivative beyond recognition or even things we heard in records that show up in our playing in an "un-rehearsed" way. I guess what you called "experiment and surprise myself with".

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I see. Then b(unprepared ) mostly only as variations of a(prepared). You see, i dont necessarily think b is such a good thing, or something we all need to strive for. Im not interested as much in pushing the boundaries as im in cementing the basics. Any innovations might happen along the way, but i wouldnt push for it.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Dunno really. Mostly I hear rhythm

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I basically hear a reduced melody. Touchstones if you will, I hear what I want to highlight. Depending on how "notey" I want to play, I can let the fingers wiggle a little and take over to "connect the dots," but I gotta be careful with that. Better to try and hear something interesting rhythmically to get from A to B than just fill it up with notes.

    I transcribed Charlie Shavers' solo on this today. I need to transcribe more "one chorus" old school trumpet stuff. No extraneous notes here.


  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I'm (b). At my best (which is once I know a tune well), I consciously pause - and 'ride the dragon'. Otherwise, and at a minimum, I hear root movement or a guide-tone line. It becomes about pedalling while sitting in the saddle - and not trying to ride while standing.

    I've spent years singing and playing schmaltz (and enjoying it) - but I'm upping my game and leveraging the work I've put into developing my ear. Venturing 'outside' now - still (b).

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    I wish I could get to the point of mechanically recycling bebop licks and patterns over changes. Right now I'm just trying (a) not to crash any ensemble I play with and (b) not to suck melodically and (c) not to make any unnatural sounds, impacts, screeches, buzzes, pops, etc. come out of my guitar.

    Therefore I'm following this thread with a good bit of interest!

  11. #10
    Yes great solo. My current transcription project is Donna Lee both head and Parker choruses.
    When I analyze the lines, I see a great deal of chord tones as one would expect from a solo especially from that era.
    So do you find that the "reduced melody" you hear naturally be more chord tone centric or do you use the chord tone stuff to connect ideas?

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Yes great solo. My current transcription project is Donna Lee both head and Parker choruses.
    When I analyze the lines, I see a great deal of chord tones as one would expect from a solo especially from that era.
    So do you find that the "reduced melody" you hear naturally be more chord tone centric or do you use the chord tone stuff to connect ideas?
    The Donna Lee head is like a textbook exercise in how to construct bebop lines out of scales, actually... Here's an analysis I did ages ago:

    Thinking vs pre-hearing chord tones-donna-lee-barry-haris-analysis-jpg

    (Barry Harris people will note that some of the terminology isn't quite right, but it should hopefully make some sense to someone.)

    When I'm running bop lines, I now think of arpeggios going through scales and descending scale lines with added notes...

    But when I play them in gigs, I don't really think of them that way....

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Here are some general videos I did about bebop line construction, which you may (or may not) find helpful








  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I wish I could get to the point of mechanically recycling bebop licks and patterns over changes.
    I'm all for licks or patterns, but that's actually what I'm trying to avoid - because I'm literally bored of 'change-chasing'.

    So I've taken action.

    I've gone back to an idea I had earlier this year: playing with the thumb - sacrificing speed in favour of more lyrical lines.

    But now, to my surprise, I'm using three fingers.

    And, coincidentally, my voice is changing. (It's a lot 'bigger', and my upper range has increased enough to be able to 'scat' while I play.)

  15. #14
    Sure, one can look at arpeggios as notes running through implicit scales or the scales can be made explicit by adding diatonic passing notes.
    I hadn't noticed the clear pattern in Donna Lee of going up in arpeggios and going down in scales until you mentioned. Thanks for pointing that out.
    I still see both directions as very chord tone centric though.
    Thanks for the videos. They look interesting. I'll check them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The Donna Lee head is like a textbook exercise in how to construct bebop lines out of scales, actually... Here's an analysis I did ages ago:



    (Barry Harris people will note that some of the terminology isn't quite right, but it should hopefully make some sense to someone.)

    When I'm running bop lines, I now think of arpeggios going through scales and descending scale lines with added notes...

    But when I play them in gigs, I don't really think of them that way....

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I hadn't noticed the clear pattern in Donna Lee of going up in arpeggios and going down in scales until you mentioned.
    That's an old school bebop device that was somewhat codified since the beginning. Along with that concept is the realization that pitch moving upward creates tension, moving downward releases tension..so ascending arpeggios raise the pitch more rapidly because the intervals are larger, increasing tension quicker than using scales upward. Descending pitch in scale intervals delays that release in tension more than descending with arpeggios. All in all, it's another tension/release controlling tool.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    It's also why DWPS picking (such as Benson picking) is a good strategy for bebop.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    I play a lot of blues informed by jazz, and when I'm doing that, I find that my own ear tends to vacillate between chord notes, leading notes, and bends when I hit the wrong note. I like a lot of b5, b9, and standard 7ths leading back home, and a lot of mixing Dorian, Aeolian, and ... ahh, hell, who am I fooling? I don't think at all when I'm in the zone.

    I surprise myself sometimes, getting away from stock licks and actually playing music, and those are the times I enjoy it the most.

    Get all those things under your fingers, and you'll find that your mind's ear talks to your fingers a lot faster than your conscious brain. I'm not a big fan of thinking while I'm playing, although it does work out sometimes.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    ...you'll find that your mind's ear talks to your fingers a lot faster than your conscious brain....
    I think that's a key thing for developing players to accept when considering the brain vs ears vs fingers. I often wonder if there are players who's soloing is an exact mirror of their "scatting" mind, i.e, their solos are the same whether they can sing them or just play them. Then there's a distinction b/n singing something vs "hearing" it. Some of my rapid patterns and devices I can pre hear, but they are too complicated or quick for me to sing. Then there are devices or lines that are newer concepts that I don't pre hear as well, yet still manage to control them well enough to introduce and resolve at will - once I dare to bring them into my playing. But if I try to introduce material that is not ready, then I stumble over my thoughts...

    So musical intuition on the fly is certainly not the same thing as thinking about what to play. To some this may be a subtle distinction, and I'm happy to accept that some people, particularly on other instruments, may be able to play only ideas they have never practiced. But even Bird fell back on the usage of his favourite musical "words" which he weaved ingeniously into new sentences. If these words were coming from the autonomic brain/nervous system, then an over arching sense of taste simultaneously would come into play to form sentences from these words. This is a kind of creative thinking, and is what we're all striving to improve ourselves at.

    It's a complex symbiosis and I don't think it's yet been codified. For one, I'd love to know of any distinction or overlap between creativity and intuition (destinytot?). Not out of pedantic interest, but because there may be ways to strengthen these relationships. Still, I think the best way we know of is to just play the shit out of your instrument and respond to what you're hearing. In much the way that anthropology shows human evolution to be a product of the way language influences thought which in turn influences language which in turn influences thought etc etc, these symbiotic "loops" are key to the fascinating way that our creativity seems to evolve. We may think it's based in our software, but it may even make it's way into our hardware, even our DNA if the Neo Lamarckists are right...

    I break this fingers vs ears discussion down to this - it's not the fingers, but it's not entirely the ears either, it's a symbiotic loop where one influences the other. Fingears! The more you work the loop, the better you get. Of course, YMMV....

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Fingears sounds about right. One thing always leads to another, the more your fingers can do the work, the more you hear, and vice versa. I'm stuck with a bunch of jazz licks that use over and over, but as my finger dexterity grows, so are my options how to use them, twist them and reworked them as I hear in new creative ways. Sort of like Chinese menu, that only taste better with age.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    My intuition tells me destinytot is about to enter the fray with a rather poignant metaphysical report on said relationships, complete with flow chart diagrams....

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    It's a complex symbiosis and I don't think it's yet been codified. For one, I'd love to know of any distinction or overlap between creativity and intuition (destinytot?). Not out of pedantic interest, but because there may be ways to strengthen these relationships.
    In the voice-over at the beginning of 'The Universal Mind of Bill Evans' (sub-heading: 'The Creative Process and Self-Teaching'), Bill Evans puts his philosophical cards on the table in a pointed declaration about 'intuition led by knowledge'.

    Provided one can get past any possible exotic and/or mystical 'woo-woo', I think that idea is complemented by consummate improviser Bruce Lee's 'Be water, my friend'.

    To play Tai Chi is to cultivate conditions favourable to creativity and intuition:
    "All his talents were deeply rooted in the philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism, finding harmony in the way humans relate to each other and to nature. Professor Cheng saw Tai Chi as an embodiment of natural laws and as a path of human growth – a way to live, a way of finding meaning, balance and peace."
    Cheng Man-Ching — The Professor: Tai Chi's Journey West

    Name-dropping again:


    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I break this fingers vs ears discussion down to this - it's not the fingers, but it's not entirely the ears either, it's a symbiotic loop where one influences the other. Fingears! The more you work the loop, the better you get. Of course, YMMV....
    I agree - but, with a caveat: "Don't practise scales or arpeggios. At all. Ever." .

    Also, I'm convinced that 'transcribing' (imitation) needs to be easy and instantaneous. If it isn't, I now believe in looking firstly to the appropriacy of the level of skill and challenge - and secondly to my own self and my motives (as a recovering Ugly Duckling, I'm no longer willing to waste time or effort trying to 'fit in').

    Not only does the latter put me in the driving seat, it also allows me to enjoy the ride - and 'fun' is, of course, a welcome relief from 'boredom'. (I'm also very fortunate to find inspiration from living simply and happily amidst the peaceful elegance of a Mediterranean slow city.)

    To put it in practical terms, I'm saying that once knowledge/data has been accrued - either by way of the OP's (a) or by way of accumulated experience, especially the 'bad' (though I think both are somewhat painful) - one can work on one's motor skills (one's 'fingears') to one's heart's content. Provided one is working with (and not 'against') one's nervous system, that is.

    Using myself as an example, I'm now working at home (online) during the mornings; I've yet to go the whole hog with dual screens and separate monitors, but I'm constantly 'playing along'' (because 'noodling' wouldn't be accurate or true) with YouTube videos of Wes. As I tell my young students reading for inference, "Slow down to speed up."

    But I don't believe that writing music down has direct relevance to playing; I do value it highly - as a discrete skill (drafting ideas for editing and reference), but unless dots on a page are a 'mandala', or unless one is more concerned with status than with self-expression, I consider the dots a distraction from the necessary act of personal struggle on a personal path - 'down and dirty', so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    My intuition tells me destinytot is about to enter the fray with a rather poignant metaphysical report on said relationships, complete with flow chart diagrams....
    Ha! Play music - because "mechanics in... (mechanics out )".

    On the subject of mechanical navigation, I was amused at the chutzpah behind this vampiric business/sales idea:
    Roomba maker wants to sell your home’s floor plan | New York Post
    Last edited by destinytot; 11-22-2017 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Addition

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Do you think development as an improviser is really the struggle to get from "a" to "b"?
    No! First it should not be strugle!

    And second: development of improvizer is development of 'b' with the help of 'a'!))))


    If you do music, hearing is something you do before any theory (even the aspiration for music means that you can hear)... conciously or not.


    There's distinction between practice room and real music playing...

    It's not necessarily that you practice only alone at home, and play music only in gigs... some concerts could be more like practice and some excersises at home could be really musically creative... it's more about your intention.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    In the voice-over at the beginning of 'The Universal Mind of Bill Evans' (sub-heading: 'The Creative Process and Self-Teaching'), Bill Evans puts his philosophical cards on the table in a pointed declaration about 'intuition led by knowledge'.

    Provided one can get past any possible exotic and/or mystical 'woo-woo', I think that idea is complemented by consummate improviser Bruce Lee's 'Be water, my friend'.

    To play Tai Chi is to cultivate conditions favourable to creativity and intuition:
    "All his talents were deeply rooted in the philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism, finding harmony in the way humans relate to each other and to nature. Professor Cheng saw Tai Chi as an embodiment of natural laws and as a path of human growth – a way to live, a way of finding meaning, balance and peace."
    Cheng Man-Ching — The Professor: Tai Chi's Journey West

    Name-dropping again:



    I agree - but, with a caveat: "Don't practise scales or arpeggios. At all. Ever." .

    Also, I'm convinced that 'transcribing' (imitation) needs to be easy and instantaneous. If it isn't, I now believe in looking firstly to the appropriacy of the level of skill and challenge - and secondly to my own self and my motives (as a recovering Ugly Duckling, I'm no longer willing to waste time or effort trying to 'fit in').

    Not only does the latter put me in the driving seat, it also allows me to enjoy the ride - and 'fun' is, of course, a welcome relief from 'boredom'. (I'm also very fortunate to find inspiration from living simply and happily amidst the peaceful elegance of a Mediterranean slow city.)

    To put it in practical terms, I'm saying that once knowledge/data has been accrued - either by way of the OP's (a) or by way of accumulated experience, especially the 'bad' (though I think both are somewhat painful) - one can work on one's motor skills (one's 'fingears') to one's heart's content. Provided one is working with (and not 'against') one's nervous system, that is.

    Using myself as an example, I'm now working at home (online) during the mornings; I've yet to go the whole hog (with dual screens and separate monitors, but I'm constantly 'playing' (because 'noodling' wouldn't be accurate or true) with YouTube videos of Wes. As I tell my young students reading for inference, "Slow down to speed up."

    But I don't believe that writing music down has direct relevance to playing; I do value it highly The point is: always play music a separate skill (i.e drafting complex musical ideas for editing and reference), but unless dots on a page are a 'mandala', or unless one is more concerned with status than with self-expression, I consider the dots to be a distraction from the necessary act of personal struggle on a personal path - 'down and dirty', so to speak.


    Ha! Play music - because "mechanics in... (mechanics out )".

    On the subject of mechanical navigation, I was amused at the chutzpah behind this vampiric business/sales idea:
    Roomba maker wants to sell your home’s floor plan | New York Post

    Wot, no flow chart?! ...

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Wot, no flow chart?! ...
    Here you go :
    Thinking vs pre-hearing chord tones-princeplanet-jpg
    And here's Bloom's Taxonomy - revised, with Creativity at the top:
    Thinking vs pre-hearing chord tones-revised_taxonomy-jpg

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Aahh... that's better!