The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I'm curious to see if people have thoughts on "outside" improvising and if perhaps they had put together some sort of rule-set or pedagogy for scale material against different chord qualities.

    I'm eager to hear,

    Thanks!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    There are already some 'rules' on outside playing. Most of them involve simple slip-sliding to the use of tritones, pentatonics, triads, and well-known substitutions. Sometimes outside playing can be the reverse of the normal different-notes-over-the-usual-chords and become changing the background while playing the normal harmonies.

    I hope you don't want a long list of possible substitutions! It would be fairly long.

  4. #3

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    I'm familiar w/all of the possible substitutions. This approach is pretty well accepted and seems to dominate all of the vids.

    I sometimes play around w/the Messien modes of limited transposition (symetrical scales) excluding the whole tone scale. I was really fishing to see if someone had happened upon a few scales or hybrids that could be counted on (like say a lydian mode op a 1/2 step against minor quality chord (Say Bb lydian against Am7...) -

    Thanks for the input.

  5. #4

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    Saying Outside has a different meaning for everyone, what's outside to one is still tame to another. So you may want say who you are listening to that you think plays out. I don't think there really is a pedagogy for playing out. Like learning to Swing lots of stuff describes it, but there is no way to really notate it, you have to learn to feeling, outside is the same thing you have to feel it. Also playing out has probably more about rhythm than it does notes. You can take your favorite inside line shift the rhythm and make it out.

    So I think the real answer is just keep experimenting.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    Bb lydian against Am7
    Bb lydian is the F major scale. I shouldn't think that against Am7 it would have much impact. Dependent on context, of course. G melodic minor's quite nice :-)

  7. #6

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    i have information on this and videos as well.

    Check this link for details.


    Also, i'm writing a book on the subject which will be out in the February timeframe...

  8. #7

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    G melodic minor is the same as Bb lydian except for the f/f# difference and f natural is more "out" than f# - agreed?

  9. #8

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    Seeing your page, I noticed the title Red Herring - I have a tune (a bit of a tip of the hat to JH) w/the same name AND used the same font for the title on the lead sheet! Ha!

  10. #9

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    The 1/2 step displacement idea seems to be a leader when discussing the outside approach, BUT at 1st blush it seems to me that what is played when up/down a 1/2 step is best left with a smaller set of pitches - like you use on the video, the pentatonic. This seems to make the outside trip more 'succinct' (am I making sense?). So, where I generally eschew the pentatonic scale, using it to go outside seems quite effective - I also like the "pattern idea" which too sounds outside.

    Please let me know when the book comes out.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    G melodic minor is the same as Bb lydian except for the f/f# difference and f natural is more "out" than f# - agreed?
    Not if you're in F or Bb.

    (edit - sorry, I was asleep! F, C, or G and their relative minors).


    What key is your Am7 in? What are the chords before and after?
    Last edited by ragman1; 11-09-2017 at 06:43 PM.

  12. #11

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    Well.... we never discussed key nor the structural function of the chord and candidly I was thinking of chords purely in the abstract, but agreed Am7 as the III in F functions differently than the I in Am (I'm not sure about Am7 in Bb - not being diatonic what would your point be?) - anyway, G melodic minor is G melodic minor and doesn't change its make up according to key - you may decide not to use it, but it remains G melodic minor.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    I'm familiar w/all of the possible substitutions. This approach is pretty well accepted and seems to dominate all of the vids.

    I sometimes play around w/the Messien modes of limited transposition (symetrical scales) excluding the whole tone scale. I was really fishing to see if someone had happened upon a few scales or hybrids that could be counted on (like say a lydian mode op a 1/2 step against minor quality chord (Say Bb lydian against Am7...) -

    Thanks for the input.
    One thing that consistently will sound out is to apply a transform based on these relationships to the root chord (as I mention on my forum). For a C chord of any type, substitute triads, pentatonics, any other chord based on the following roots: C#, D#, E, F#, G#, B.

    Remember that the more dense your substitution is , the more possibilities you have for it to sound inside due to commonality with the original chord and implied scale.

  14. #13

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    I've heard the term "channeling" used to describe the use of just a few notes for a solo. So it would seem to be more of a rhythmic approach and could be used to play outside.

  15. #14

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    To me, "outside" needs to have some distinct musical internal logic that continues to hold a relationship to the progression harmony.

    Play these four major pentatonic scales
    Db, D, Eb, E
    as descending arpeggios
    each from tonic to tonic
    over the corresponding four chords
    Ebm7 Ab(9) Dbmaj7 Bb(13)

    The chromatic shift movement of the fixed intevallic pents heralds the angularity of an outside sound vs a harmonized sound, yet the shifting of the pents with the progression chords is mechanically "naturally" generating altered tones with an emergent feeling that is totally within the jazz vocabulary.

    As mentioned above, using reduced note density like pents makes less notes fall into the "right places".

    Likewise, the comment about the rhythmic aspect - with an "outside schematic" motif like this, the prime focus can be on phrasing.

  16. #15

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    are you describing the pitches Ab Bb Db Eb F as Db "major" pentatonic?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    Well.... we never discussed key nor the structural function of the chord and candidly I was thinking of chords purely in the abstract, but agreed Am7 as the III in F functions differently than the I in Am
    That's just it, it depends.

    I'm not sure about Am7 in Bb
    My mistake, I meant F or C and I've corrected my post above. And G, I should have included too. Or, of course, Dm, Am or Em.

    anyway, G melodic minor is G melodic minor and doesn't change its make up according to key - you may decide not to use it, but it remains G melodic minor
    It remains, yes, but its effect would nevertheless depend on context.

  18. #17

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    Agreed!

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    are you describing the pitches Ab Bb Db Eb F as Db "major" pentatonic?
    Yes... but ordered as descending
    tonic to tonic
    Db Bb Ab F Eb Db
    (same for the others)
    just for clarity of construction
    to hear what happens

    Once you hear it, free to do whatever
    including renaming/reinterpreting

  20. #19

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    I used to jam with my friend Zigzag, but playing outside meant something different to him...


  21. #20

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    That's cold man...

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I used to jam with my friend Zigzag, but playing outside meant something different to him...


    ha, I was wondering how long it would take.
    yeah, playing outside? make sure to take a jacket and an umbrella

  23. #22

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    To the OP...

    I'm not sure if I have a 'system' per se.

    I think there are many ways into it....

    One extremely obvious way to do it is quite simply to move up and down a semitone. But you could really pick any relationship with the key centre... Minor thirds, Major thirds, tritones, whole tones.

    Two things... firstly resolution is really the important thing.

    As I hear it, traditional changes playing has always dealt with elements of 'outsideness.' Good changes players create enough outsideness to entertain the ear without losing the overall tonality. But if you want you can extend the outsideness and lose the tonality (provided you don't lose the form.)

    Learning to play outside is just prolonging the tension. There are lots of ways you can do this...

    Another way is simply to take the tonality of the progression/chord you are soloing on and play on a sound that would resolve to it. An obvious one would be altered dominant - so on Cm7, say, play G altered.

    But really, there are so many ways of playing a resolution into any chord that you could use practically anything. For instance, you could play a chord progression like this:

    Cm7 F7 Bbm7 Eb7 Abm7 Db7 Cm7

    Over a static Cm chord and not even sound that weird because there is a strong tonal logic to what you are doing, it's just superimposed on a pedal. (This is esp. true if you are playing without another chord instrument.)

    To play something less conventional, I'll often stack tritones and minot sevenths on top of each other to create a more 'atonal' vibe - kind of like a note row, but less stringent.

    There's this fourths formula that Eddie Harris etc used - go round the cycle of fourths so you get all twelve notes (start on any note):

    C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G

    This by the way is Collier's super-infra-Locrian scale.... Or whatever he calls it :-)

    Obviously this doesn't make for much of a line, so what you do is you transpose all the notes above the octave down by an octave. It's pretty cool (hard to play though.)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    I'm curious to see if people have thoughts on "outside" improvising and if perhaps they had put together some sort of rule-set or pedagogy for scale material against different chord qualities.

    I'm eager to hear,

    Thanks!
    Hi,
    Have you any favorites jazz players playing outside?
    Best
    Kris

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I used to jam with my friend Zigzag, but playing outside meant something different to him...

    outside looks like provocation...:-)
    O