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  1. #31
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    Hey NSJ - I editted and expanded my post. It's a complex topic.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    (BTW The big advances in my time/feel recently have come from samba and upbeats, playing percussion and being told off for having lazy upbeats when playing Cavaquinho. Nothing to do with triplets directly .... but really it's a constant experience of revisiting rhythms and getting deeper and more specific about them)



    And some players, irritating though it is, are just rhythmic naturals. (I am not.) I have taught some myself. It's humbling.
    me too man. I have so much work to do on this area. It's all about the "ands".

    Displacing a rhythm that originally started on the downbeat and putting it such that it starts on an upbeat is really hard for me.
    Navdeep Singh.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    me too man. I have so much work to do on this area. It's all about the "ands".

    Displacing a rhythm that originally started on the downbeat and putting it such that it starts on an upbeat is really hard for me.
    Then that is an excellent thing to practice for 5m a day.

  4. #34
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    Barry said to tap on the one and the three, because the two and the four are so important they should be already ingrained in your heart
    Navdeep Singh.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    Barry said to tap on the one and the three, because the two and the four are so important they should be already ingrained in your heart
    I've heard him say it a few ways - 1 and 3 is lower body, 2 and 4 is upper body. Or '1 and 3 is to keep the devil away.'

    Swing dancers get this actually.

  6. #36
    Hobbyist ramblings below.

    Some of this is pretty rough, but I couldn't get my thing to work today. Ended up just doing the webcam. Wanders a bit. Sorry. For some of what I'm doing in this video, I explained it more in another take and then forgot to add it into this one. Anyway, most of these triplet patterns I'm playing are of the "2nd 8th note triplet" variety that you guys are talking about. I learned to play it basically with fingers, but - with a pick - for me, it basically started as a ghost note on the downbeat. That makes it pretty easy with a straight physical reference like alternate picking or fingers. It's easier to aim for something on 1 than to aim for something "not on 1". At least for me....



    I need to check out the Mike Longo material. Which product is the starting point?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-15-2017 at 08:11 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Hobbyist ramblings below.

    Some of this is pretty rough, but I couldn't get my thing to work today. Ended up just doing the webcam. Wanders a bit. Sorry. For some of what I'm doing in this video, I explained it more in another take and then forgot to add it into this one. Anyway, most of these triplet patterns I'm playing are of the "2nd 8th note triplet" variety that you guys are talking about. I learned to play it basically with fingers, but - with a pick - for me, it basically started as a ghost note on the downbeat. That makes it pretty easy with a straight physical reference like alternate picking or fingers. It's easier to aim for something on 1 than to aim for something "not on 1". At least for me....



    I need to check out the Mike Longo material. Which product is the starting point?
    Hes got 3 DVDs the crux of it is DVD 2, where he interacts one on one with students on all kinds of instruments I haven't seen the third one . The first two are well worth getting. As well as his little book on improvising a melodic line .

    preview

    Navdeep Singh.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    me too man. I have so much work to do on this area. It's all about the "ands".

    Displacing a rhythm that originally started on the downbeat and putting it such that it starts on an upbeat is really hard for me.
    My instructor is always trying to get me to start and end way more phrases on the and. Something I'm working on. I've been working from a pdf 'Getting in Time' for the last 3 weeks and it's helped immensely.

  9. #39
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    I'm stuck at work til Midnight (!) so I conceive music in my mind and tap it out on the table, staring at a computer screen.

    I wonder if this is familiar?

    Quarter note triplet + 8th Note triplet + 2 8th notes?

    Split the bar into two two beat phrases:

    1st phrase: Duh-du-ga-da (quarter note triplet)
    2nd phrase: ta-ki-ta + ta-ka
    Navdeep Singh.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Very cool. What specifically are the names of the products you're talking about?
    Here is the link to Mile Longo's site. http://store.fastcommerce.com/jazzbe...d556127-c.html

    Both Mike Longo CDs on this page, To My Surprise and Step On It, come with the extra CD for the drumming rhythms that go with his dvd series on the Rhythmic Nature Of Jazz. Great series. I have Series I, II and III of the dvds but haven't listened yet to III yet which is actually a download instead of a dvd. Great material. Would be awesome to use in group but haven't been in a combo since I went to Abersold last summer.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Marshall View Post
    Here is the link to Mile Longo's site. Jazz Education

    Both Mike Longo CDs on this page, To My Surprise and Step On It, come with the extra CD for the drumming rhythms that go with his dvd series on the Rhythmic Nature Of Jazz. Great series. I have Series I, II and III of the dvds but haven't listened yet to III yet which is actually a download instead of a dvd. Great material. Would be awesome to use in group but haven't been in a combo since I went to Abersold last summer.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
    Don't see any link to DVD 3 content.
    Navdeep Singh.

  12. #42
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    Here is the link to the main page
    The CDs I gave links to may just be for Volume II and III as Volume I is the introduction video.

    Jazzbeat Home



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  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Anyone feel like recording some video of how they utilize 6 against 4 in the context of, say, practicing lines or comping? I hear rhythms in jazz as being quite a bit more complicated than how they're generally transcribed, and I appreciate the discussions and important of subdivisions, quarter and eighth note triplets, but so far haven't found a way of working them into my playing in a more meaningful way.

    Are we talking about things like, say, playing swing eighths that sound behind the beat because they are actually starting on the 2 of an eighth note triplet? Or even on perhaps the 1-and of an eighth note triplet?
    Thought about this question yesterday and wondered if I'd really addressed it properly. To your last couple of questions, I'd view using triplets to phrase behind/ahead is really the whole point of them. Anyway, I tried to play a mostly "behind" chorus of this tune using triplets. Maybe it makes some sense. I did another one more on process and how I learned to hear them some. (I'm still working on all of this.) This is in the context of chord melody or solo playing, but you can apply similar to non-CM as well. It would be cool to discuss that aspect if you're interested (or not interested in the CM part). Incidentally, the 2nd chorus of the first vid is just my cheesy comping using this feel, but it's probably a little more straight ahead and easier to hear, re. the triplet patterns etc.

    I'm just a student of this stuff myself, but I'm happy to answer questions on my thoughts etc. Thanks.
    [EDIT: At 3:26 of the 2nd one, I should have said "Quarter note triplets" instead of dotted quarter notes. Youtube has apparently 86'd annotations. So, I can't correct it on-screen.]


    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-07-2017 at 10:23 AM.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    Hes got 3 DVDs the crux of it is DVD 2, where he interacts one on one with students on all kinds of instruments I haven't seen the third one . The first two are well worth getting. As well as his little book on improvising a melodic line .

    preview



    I hear this and get it BUT can someone point out an example of Dizzy and or Parker playing Polyrhythmically ?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I hear this and get it BUT can someone point out an example of Dizzy and or Parker playing Polyrhythmically ?
    Here's a couple of examples to get your started:
    Charlie Parker discography - Wikipedia

    List of works by Dizzy Gillespie - Wikipedia

    More seriously, swing feel itself is polyrhythmic. Basic jazz swing feel can be understood as a 12/8, with upbeats generally - but not always - occurring on the 3rd 8th of each beat. As there are different ways of grouping this 12/8 we have quite a lot of freedom already. 4/4 is prevalent, but we also have 6/4 and 3/2 groupings, and in the case of Bembe, the ride cymbal beat, the swing conga rhythm, the charleston and the clave, the displaced 6/8 starting on the 2nd 8th of the bar.

    This is a West African concept of time layered over 4/4 or 2/2. A mixture of the European march beat and West African drumming traditions.

    That's why I found the hand drum exercises so useful. It gets you out of thinking over 4/4 all the time.

    As you yourself have mentioned you also have straight upbeat phrasing against that, so we can think of 16/16 and 8/8 being superimposed on top of that basic matrix - double time or straight upbeats.

    And that's just for starters.

    So all jazz musicians play poly-rhythmically. In fact Charlie Parker was just particularly adventurous in his use of rhythm. Check out this article for more info:

    THE DOZENS: STEVE COLEMAN ON CHARLIE PARKER (edited by Ted Panken & Steve Coleman) | Steve Coleman

  16. #46
    So often I think people are looking for examples of polyrhythmic playing in jazz that are more overt, with hard accents like maybe you would see classical music. Growing up in school, you basically learn to play syncopation with the accents which are implied by the syncopation, and that's appropriate in most Western styles.

    But in Jazz , you hear a lot of phrasing 2 against 3 where the accents are basically the same as they "would have been" in normal duple phrasing. That's what really typifies the sound of "playing ahead". If the cross rhythm was explicitly accented , it would sound like more classical syncopation, as opposed to playing ahead/behind.

  17. #47
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  18. #48
    I already Swing now but do it by feel....and tuplets are in my lines- it is natural for me to do.

    I just never thought of them as Polyrhythms though..

    On the Video where Longo was Playing in 5/4 and 7/4 against the other Player- I thought that was really cool but I do NOT hear that in Gillespie or Parker....

    IF that video was longer I should be able to play Rhythm Guitar over it in 6/8 AND in 5/ 4 and get 2 completely different 'feels' from the Backbeats.

    ( a great exercise for a Composer who thinks he's Rhythmic - lol -IMO )

    I have experimented with 5/4 or 7/4 Rhythm Guitar Parts in
    4/4 but those are Polymetric and Polyrhythmic ...right?

    When Rhythms go over the Bar Line but Sync on the
    1 every 4 bars or 7 bars- those are technically Polyrhythmic and Polymetric ...where 6 against 4
    12-8 as in Jazz Swing usually resolve within the Bar ( or are in continuous Sync ) so are Polyrhythmic
    but not Polymetric ?


    Sorry for redundant examples..

    Or is Longo engaging in abstracts to explain a 'feel' ?


    I guess I always thought of over the Bar lines Patterns as being Polyrhythmic - I don't hear that in early BeBop...

    I hear it when I copy some of Brecker's quintuplets and other tuplets ...which go over the Bar Lines and eventually 'Sync' on the 1 .

    Longo should have played 6/8 and 4/4 and 12/ 8 over 4/4 ..

    Just an odd note grouping here and there does not mean Charlie Parker or Dizzy were playing 7/4 or 5/4
    against 6/8 does it ?

    @Christian- I can hear 12/8 and 4/4 simultaneously - if I hear it correctly - it would be a good way to get Classical Musicians to Swing...have them Play in 12/8 and then Count in 4/4 ...then Play in 4/4 ...?

    Am I getting your Point ?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-07-2017 at 01:01 PM.

  19. #49
    I may be wrong, but I wouldn't think they're talking about imposing something over an entire tune or over a great many bars of music necessarily. That's more theoretical practice type stuff I would think.

    There are some snippets as well. Charleston or quartets note triplets are pieces of polyrhythms. Beyond all of that, there's an implied poly metric ground rhythm, clave etc. which can be implied by multiple elements at once. Melody very often implies rhythm which isn't overtly accented.

  20. #50
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    The example Mike Longo gives of the hidden five in Gillespies playing is the first track of the album he did with Basie - the Gifted Ones.

    YMMV - to me hidden five sounds related to the displaced 6/8 Bembe triplet

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I already Swing now but do it by feel....and tuplets are in my lines- it is natural for me to do.

    I just never thought of them as Polyrhythms though..

    I have experimented with 5/4 or 7/4 Rhythm Guitar Parts in
    4/4 but those are Polymetric and Polyrhythmic ...right?

    When Rhythms go over the Bar Line but Sync on the
    1 every 4 bars or 7 bars- those are technically Polyrhythmic and Polymetric ...where 6 against 4
    12-8 as in Jazz Swing usually resolve within the Bar ( or are in continuous Sync ) so are Polyrhythmic
    but not Polymetric ?

    I guess I always thought of over the Bar lines Patterns as being Polyrhythmic - I don't hear that in early BeBop...

    I hear it when I copy some of Brecker's quintuplets and other tuplets ...which go over the Bar Lines and eventually 'Sync' on the 1 ?

    Some observations and regurgitation of knowledge gleaned from personal experience and other sources indirectly such as Mr. Longo and Mr. Gillespie:

    Triplets over a single beat are not a polyrhythm. A triplet played over a measure where another instrument is playing in 2 or 4 (beats per measure)is a polyrhythm. This also applies to playing with 5 or 7 beats within a measure where another instrument playing 4 beats or 6 beats. And it is worth saying that you don't literally have to play all of the notes, but play based on the structure of that feel.

    Playing 5/4 over the bar line of 4/4 and synchronizing after 5 bars is polymetric, a polymeter. Polymeters share their subdivisions (downbeats, upbeats, etc.). In general, polyrhythms share very few subdivisions with each pothet and might only share the down of 1, and sometimes also the down of 3. But this is only if the second rhythm starts on the down of 1, but I digress.

    Basically polyrhythm means the voices having two or more time feels at the same time that sync after each measure. Polymeter means the feels sync after more than 1 measure.

    The more you can ingrain these feels, the more simple they become. And eventually it becomes part of your musicianship which frees you to play rhythmically instead of thinking rhythmically. We all think when performing but, at some point, certain aspects of our performance happen without thought, meaning we start to literally play music, stream of consciousness type stuff.

    I guess I should have been a stand up philospopher. Hope it was helpful.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

  22. #52
    My orientation is tight time by feel ..but Notation would be difficult because I read like a 8 week piano student ...lol.

    And when creating Polymetric Harmonic Rhythms that actuall fit and groove well- they can be difficult to count.

    There was a point where Longo was talking about 6/8 against 5/4 and 7/4 and putting the 1 in a different spot- a cool idea.


    Excellent Summary - reinforced mostly what I was thinking ...Longo was doing Polymetric and Polyrhythmic stuff on two simultaneous drum parts which are not overtly present as Harmonic Rhythms in BeBop.


    I am interested in that more for Composition of actual Harmonic Rhythms which do that ...not what he was referring to.

    He seems to be referring to odd note groupings and tuplets in the Melodic/ improvised lines which can be squeezed in while playing to a conform to 4/4.











    Definitely Helps .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-08-2017 at 06:48 AM.

  23. #53
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    Even though I struggled with technical issues on the DVDs he put out on rhythm, the concept seems very interesting.

    From what I’ve seen, I agree. He isn’t really talking about “swinging “. He is very specifically talking about the rhythm underpinnings of bebop phrasing. It is about understanding simultaneous 3/4, 6/8, 4/4, 5/4 rhythms and how they play together.

    And it isn’t African clave either. As he says, you don’t travel to Africa and hear bebop phrases being played in the streets.

    It is an integral part of the bebop language that he feels has been overlooked and neglected. When you hear/see his demonstrations, it is hard not to be convinced he’s right.


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    Last edited by rlrhett; 11-08-2017 at 12:10 AM.

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