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Old Boppers said a Ami7b5 is really a C Min6/A, people later think of Min7b5 is what it is. The one is an inversion of the other. I know my teacher and I go around on this topic now and then. But here a video on the topic for those new to it.
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08-14-2017 02:10 PM
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I often think of min7b5 as a dom7 chord played from the 3rd up (F7 in the case of Am7b5)...
...but I'm just a greenhorn...
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Robben Ford is smiling hearing that one.
Originally Posted by TOMMO
I often think of min7b5 as a dom7 chord played from the 3rd up (F7 in the case of Am7b5)...
...but I'm just a greenhorn...
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That's a pretty convoluted way to view the mi7b5. It's still just the iimi7of what this guy calls its related dominant 7th. I watched this a second time to make sure I could track the logic. I know the first be boppers called the mi7b5 a minor 6th with the 6th in the bass. So what?
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That's how Barry Harris does it. Originally Posted by TOMMO
I often think of min7b5 as a dom7 chord played from the 3rd up (F7 in the case of Am7b5)...
...but I'm just a greenhorn...
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I haven't watched the video (not able to) but I would say the benefit of viewing a m7b5 as anything other than a m7b5 is that it gives you soloing options. Originally Posted by Moonray
If you are using different material over different types of chords, you are limiting options for your playing. You really want to reuse as much material as you can in all harmonic contexts.
Most jazzers know a ton of dominant, major and/or minor material so treating the m7b5 as related to those chords is a way to open up available options.
Barry Harris students for instance spend much of their time working on the dominant scale. Most boppers are dominant oriented in fact.
Otoh if you knew a load of m7b5 lines you could do the same thing with minor and dominant chords.... the thing is most people don't.Last edited by christianm77; 08-15-2017 at 04:45 AM.
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For those new to these concepts, there is one other common way to view m7b5 not covered in the video - as an altered chord related to the 7th degree of the melodic minor scale. For example, a chord comprised of the notes A, C, Eb, G could be considered as Cm6/A, F9 (no root), Am7b5 and B altered (B7#5/b9, no root).
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Good point.Am7b5 and B altered (B7#5/b9, no root).
Bm7b5 (Dm6) covers all the altered scale notes missing from Am7b5 (Cm6)
As a chord pair:
A C Eb G + B D F A = B C D Eb F G A
b7 b9 3 b13 + 1 #9 b5 b7 = 1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7
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I sub the V7 with a iim7b5 sometimes, or use them in place of a dim7 because I feel they have a little more color.
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Bm7b5 , Dm7b5 and F#m7b5 is actually 2 -5 -1 in A minor. Dm7b5 = E7b9b13. Of course F#m7b5 is Am6, a common sound for tonic minor.
For maj 2-5-1, I like m7b5 based from the 3rd of the V chord as well as against the ii chord.
So for 2-5-1 in maj and min, out of 6 chords you can use m7b5 against 5 of them. For the other chord you can just use m7nat5
...
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We already know that the "two->five" in a "two->five->one" is often treated otherwise.
the "two->five" part may be a:
two->five
two->four
two->two
five->five
four->five
five->four
two->flat two
five->flat two
four->flat two
Am7b5 is a strong "two->" sound that wants to be followed by a "five" or "flat two", maybe a "four" that is a "five" augmented rooted on its 7th
Cm6/A has some "four->" sound that wants to be followed by a "five", in this case the press for the "five" to be sharp 9 is strong
Cm6/A still retains a strong minor third (Eb) that has some pressure to go through Daug either as a "five" or as a "four" a la Daug/C
I have not read anything in this thread yet about an augmented interpretation... maybe the old timers were treating the thing as m6/6 to hear them as "fours" so that the "two-five-ones" could be treated as "four-five-ones" among other variations?
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This post is a bit philosophical for me. To me Am7b5 vs Cm6/A is entirely in the ear of the beholder.
I tend to think in m6 cos it's easier... how I hear them .... that depends on the root movement. A E G sounds like a 2 5 1 to me.
Bear in mind that in classical harmony the pre dominant chord in a cadence (in C) is usually what we would call a Dm/F because that's a lot easier to voice lead than IV V I in root position.
HOWEVER - to the composers of that time Dm/F was an F chord whatever Rameau said.
In minor we would have Do/F
So the II/IV connection goes back to the beginning of tonality.
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ALL chords depend on context..thus their "name" is flexible..a CMA 7 could be seen as an altered bIII7 or an altered bVI major..al la ben monder..
I have seen analysis of chord progressing in standards when some say there are five keys present in the song..where I only find one..in reality a chord is just "frozen" notes for a short period of time and can be named at that position or it could be named for what it implies..depending on where its coming from and where its going..naming chords is more of a way to remember how to finger a chord rather than its function..when some have to finger a familiar chord with another name..some get lost..the same happens with inversions of the same chord..
so is D9/Ami6/F#mi7b5/Ab7b9#5/B11b9---etc the same chord?
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Yeah although some of those connections are more obvious/immediate than others. Originally Posted by wolflen
Also is cmaj13#11 the same as d13? Not sure....
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Owwwww sounds like the need for a Christianm77 video on Chord Pluralities is being call for, something like The Twelve Faces of Ma7b5.
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There's a great section in Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist where he creates full page of voiced progressions
using the many functional uses of a singular chord quality. He did this for Ma7, Ma7b5 and perhaps Ma7#5.
In typical Mick fashion he made up a funny cryptic name for this activity that included the word "singularity".
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That's a good name actually. Originally Posted by docbop
But I'm supposed to be on holiday ATM (in fact this involves playing the Surdo badly.)
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Originally Posted by wolflen
Hi Wolf can you point me in the direction what Ben Monder says re CM7 as alt bVI Major,
not serious just interested
i nearly posted last week regarding this using eg AbM7 in place of G7 or a Tonic CM7#5#9 no 3rd etc.
Dm9 AbM7/C CM7 if playing Dm 5x355x moving up min3 8x688x to CM
i started from replacing a CM7#5 CBEG# from 6th string voicing, CMaj7#9#5 is a fairly wild sound
so thought using a regular sound AbM7/C in place of CM7#9#5 then to CMaj7
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Originally Posted by christianm77
yes but play the C & D with capitals otherwise we will dock your pay.
lydian perspective CM13#11 can be D13 no 3rd
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
, Dm7b5 and F#m7b5 is actually 2 -5 -1 in A minor. Dm7b5 = E7b9b13. Of course F#m7b5 is Am6,...
Bm7b5 E7 alt Am7
really just Dm6 Fm6 Am
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Well yeah, question is how well does it work the other way around. I'm not talking contemporary Ben Monder clever clever shit ( Originally Posted by Durban
) but just good honest meat and potatoes jazz like in the olden days lol.
In all seriousness I've not spent much time running D7 dominant lines on C chords. I'll get back to you when I have a big old opinion on it.
But it's a little awkward, that potential non reversibility of that substitution in straight ahead jazz.... the lydian sound tends not to be a feature of bop - but the theoretical side of me wants it all to be symmetrical!
Basically when it comes down to it, parallel minor into major modal interchange aside, straight ahead/bop playing is actually pretty diatonic to the key 90% of the time, subs and scale choices fit in with that.... tritone subs etc are a special effect.Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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your wish comes true..Augmented Scale Theory — Javier Arau Originally Posted by christianm77
Well yeah, question is how well does it work the other way around. I'm not talking contemporary Ben Monder clever clever shit () but just good honest meat and potatoes jazz like in the olden days lol.
In all seriousness I've not spent much time running D7 dominant lines on C chords. I'll get back to you when I have a big old opinion on it.
But it's a little awkward, that potential non reversibility of that substitution in straight ahead jazz.... the lydian sound tends not to be a feature of bop - but the theoretical side of me wants it all to be symmetrical!
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this guy does a good job in describing how to "blend" diatonic-diminished-augmented applications in melodic and harmonic ways..it does take some dedication and patients to "get it" but for me worth the effort and time..and yes this kind of stuff covers traditional jazz as well as fusion and free style..you have to get used to "working without a net" with this kind of stuff..as Javier says at one point..the goal has been reached-play anything-anytime-anywhere..it will stretch your ears
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The Monder reference is from a fairly old post of his describing how to prepare for taking lessons with him..he gives a chart of sorts that lists all the chord types and their inversions you should know before you begin the lessons.. Originally Posted by Durban
your chord substitutions are coming from the C augmented scale--it is ALSO the Ab and E aug scale (note your spelling out the CM7#5 chord=EM7#5 and Ab triads Major and minor)..and with it are three major and three minor chords (C Ab E) .. think of the implications of the minor chords-(acting as a ii7 with the V7 implied--Cmi7-F7) and using the iv7 (Fmi7 = Ab6) to cycle back to CM7..or EM7..or several other choices..this stuff gets pretty wild when you get into it...
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Don't know why you would but yourself through the mental gymnastics ECCEPT to acquire material for soloing.
Bmin7b5...you can only be in ONE key:C.
Bmin7b5 IS G9 without a root.
G9 without a root IS Dmin6.
Voice G7 third inversion. Mask the root by adding a ninth (A). You are looking at Dmin6 first inversion.
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its slowly coming back to me, sort of remember that Monder thing did catch my attention. Originally Posted by wolflen
Actually i was not really focusing on Augmented scale per se but you are spot on. Being into Harmonic Major & Lydian Diminished, like the #9 on Major7 a regular CM7#5 C B E G# can sound crap but playable, better surrounded by C6 CM7 etc as (i write) wanted major#5 voicings on guitar stretchy, piano/keys more manageable.
I also use a EminM7 as a CM7#9 rootless simple x7x887 or on 12th i use exactly as playing Emin7 for CM9 which i play most the of the time. for me adding M7 to Emin makes a CM7#9 rootless
but the sound is not as dissonant, really just a advanced renaming game, which i know you know.
I use Harmonic Major like Melodic Minor in terms of interchanging the chords, just renaming ,
easy with bass player or keys,
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