The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 35 of 35
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    In all seriousness I've not spent much time running D7 dominant lines on C chords. I'll get back to you when I have a big old opinion on it.
    .
    Christian, re CM7#11 and D13 forget about all the hard core stuff play a simple D Maj pentatonic
    over CMaj it gives you C Lydian also Bmin PT = D maj PT

    just like we all learn the normal Amin pent shape, simple now interchange the sounds/chords
    so D Maj pentatonic D E F# A B is 9 3 #11 13 M7 of C lyd

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Dude this really has nothing to do with what I mean. Pentatonics are great but I'm talking about bop language. It all works in so much as you can play it and it sounds good.

    I'm not sure if I've explained this very well....

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Dude this really has nothing to do with what I mean. Pentatonics are great but I'm talking about bop language. It all works in so much as you can play it and it sounds good.

    I'm not sure if I've explained this very well....
    I'm not sure if I've explained this very well... not really
    and has most certainly got to do with CM7#11 & D13 I was pointing out that DMaj pentatonic , is C lyd because it sounbded like you did not know. also its not the normal pentatonic application, but superimposed for wnt of a word whether D or Bmin Pentatonics are used in Bop. clue is in the name Five,

    The topic started with Min7b5 and a number of people implied that it was too much calling that Min7b5 another name, well if they cant hear, so be it,

    re CM7b5 & D13 both can = F#m7b5 and a few more chords. Jarret B Harris Herbie McCoy Sco Wes etc etc all used pentatonic but possibly in a way most dont get.

    Pentatonic can be altered it can have chromatics, it does not have to be a strict scale just like anything else

    WES used Emin PT arpeggio over CMaj giving E G A B D giving 3 5 13 7 9 it always sounds great. Not too be missed sound. But yes not Min7b5. merely pointing out, it is all over the place and pentatonic
    is not what one may generally think it is, there are Lydian , Melodic min. Altered Diminished PT 1 b3 b5 bb7 7( although never stated like that) Half Dim PT, Blues scale is Hexatonic, but some associate with a pentatonic, even PT over Minb7

    if you can hear you play it,

    ps some folk weird think pentatonic is somehow baby rock player stuff YESit can be, but a lot of players
    McCoy Coltrane use 4 note cells not 5 like PT J Henderson Walter Bishop plenty can be called motifs if repeated so there you go.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    I'm not sure if I've explained this very well... not really
    and has most certainly got to do with CM7#11 & D13 I was pointing out that DMaj pentatonic , is C lyd because it sounbded like you did not know. also its not the normal pentatonic application, but superimposed for wnt of a word whether D or Bmin Pentatonics are used in Bop. clue is in the name Five,

    The topic started with Min7b5 and a number of people implied that it was too much calling that Min7b5 another name, well if they cant hear, so be it,

    re CM7b5 & D13 both can = F#m7b5 and a few more chords. Jarret B Harris Herbie McCoy Sco Wes etc etc all used pentatonic but possibly in a way most dont get.

    Pentatonic can be altered it can have chromatics, it does not have to be a strict scale just like anything else

    WES used Emin PT arpeggio over CMaj giving E G A B D giving 3 5 13 7 9 it always sounds great. Not too be missed sound. But yes not Min7b5. merely pointing out, it is all over the place and pentatonic
    is not what one may generally think it is, there are Lydian , Melodic min. Altered Diminished PT 1 b3 b5 bb7 7( although never stated like that) Half Dim PT, Blues scale is Hexatonic, but some associate with a pentatonic, even PT over Minb7

    if you can hear you play it,

    ps some folk weird think pentatonic is somehow baby rock player stuff YESit can be, but a lot of players
    McCoy Coltrane use 4 note cells not 5 like PT J Henderson Walter Bishop plenty can be called motifs if repeated so there you go.
    Whoa there fella.... that's all great... I'm aware all this stuff exists out there.... but what you have written represents (for me) years of work as pent harmonic applications don't feature much in my style, although I can see their appeal and value particularly in more modern styles of jazz. I transcribe enough of that stuff and have read enough theory to realise it.

    I can even do some of it in my practice room. In my practice room.

    Understanding theory and being able to do stuff in my practice is not the same thing as getting something in you playing on the bandstand. For me that takes a long time. So I have to make a real steady commitment of years to make it happen.

    most other gigging players seem to have similar experiences.

    And the fact that not everyone does everything is part of what gives us a voice. Negative choices are as pivotal as positive choices IMO.

    So that info might express what you do as a musician, to me it's basically useless because I am not you and haven't put the hours in to it (beyond just the theory, that I already get.)

    In the same way Ben Monder's handout is three pages long (IIRC.) how much work does that represent?

    One thing I appreciate about the pentatonic thing is that it is about taking simple material and applying it in every way you can think of. This is a great thing to do and not something limited to just pentatonics.

    Anyway - You are really talking about the 60s language and later - McCoy etc I'm talking about more classical bop stuff, Barry Harris, arpeggio subs in the dominant scale etc which is my daily jazz diet. The lydian doesn't feature in the general run of things for that stuff. So the D9/Cmaj7 link isn't really closed.

    Btw in BH stuff you do run 1-2-3-5 on fast chord changes. That's just root position major pent tetrachords of course. I'm shit at it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2017 at 08:29 PM.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Also Em on C is a great sound. I actually do almost go to the pentatonic on that. But it's more like triads for me....

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    Actually, Pentatonic usage in the way that Durban describes is often just adding one note to a common 4 note group (typical arps etc). I'm quite into it myself, and don't think it necessarily sounds post 60's. Depends on usage and ways of embellishing.... Some kinds of simple pentatonics feature heavily in Swing, right? Prez ? ....

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Actually, Pentatonic usage in the way that Durban describes is often just adding one note to a common 4 note group (typical arps etc). I'm quite into it myself, and don't think it necessarily sounds post 60's. Depends on usage and ways of embellishing.... Some kinds of simple pentatonics feature heavily in Swing, right? Prez ? ....

    Without being all arsesy (fine in youre in politics hahah) i meant to add

    Pentatonic think of as just little four or five note cells

    Pentatonic like Maj & Dom & MMin you dont have to play the whole scale/Arp

    Just as one plays little 3 note chords or even Sco 2 note cluster,

    and just to point out a little 5 Note Pentatonic can be Lydian or Altered Dom scale

    Eg Cm C Bb G F Eb C (R) is a A7 Altered

    I DID mention this sometime ago so its not Pentatonic per se

    this is fairly advanced purely in terms of Naming

    Plying and hearing is easy.

    Christian i think may have said Boppers dont play wrong they did all the time,
    and Yip they added chromatics sometimes

    Our Darling Wes played Pentatonics a lot and he was the best.

    This is not too be confused with Modal & Pentatonics & Fourths

    McCoy was Boss there,

    Prince thanks for bringing that up, highly usable & very playable

    Regards D

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    some other ways to treat it...


  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    I know I'm late to this discussion, but any and all chords need to be first judged by how that chord works. There are many ambiguities in harmony and the m7b5 / m6 / incomplete dom9 is one of the best.

    In theory class, often time the half dim7 (as they like to say in the classical realm) is described as leaning into a I (like B half dim7 to CM) - yes, but not really because of the B leading tone. It's more because of it being an incomplete G9. The tritone resolves to the M3 in the I and any other active tones resolve according to voice leading. The REAL issue is the m7b5 chord that functions as an altered min (like Am7b5 to D7b5 or D7.... like in Rhapsody In Blue). Functionally, that's really a different chord and perhaps you'll want to improvise against it differently. I also think this is how more altered minors in bebop are handled.

    As far as the m6 is concerned - we may be splitting hairs, but such a chord should really only be thought of as such if it's staying in the minor root area... like Gm7 - Gm6 - Gm7 - Gm6 (like in a bossa), but if it's going to say FM7... it should be thought of as C9 because that's how it's functioning.

    My thoughts.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by CamillusUSA
    I know I'm late to this discussion, but any and all chords need to be first judged by how that chord works. There are many ambiguities in harmony and the m7b5 / m6 / incomplete dom9 is one of the best.

    In theory class, often time the half dim7 (as they like to say in the classical realm) is described as leaning into a I (like B half dim7 to CM) - yes, but not really because of the B leading tone. It's more because of it being an incomplete G9. The tritone resolves to the M3 in the I and any other active tones resolve according to voice leading. The REAL issue is the m7b5 chord that functions as an altered min (like Am7b5 to D7b5 or D7.... like in Rhapsody In Blue). Functionally, that's really a different chord and perhaps you'll want to improvise against it differently. I also think this is how more altered minors in bebop are handled.

    As far as the m6 is concerned - we may be splitting hairs, but such a chord should really only be thought of as such if it's staying in the minor root area... like Gm7 - Gm6 - Gm7 - Gm6 (like in a bossa), but if it's going to say FM7... it should be thought of as C9 because that's how it's functioning.

    My thoughts.
    Barry Harris thinks of the half dim chord as an incomplete 9th or a min6 depending on context. In the case of a min ii-V-I

    Bm7b5 E7b9 Am7
    We basically think

    G7 G#o7 Am7

    So we can run a G7 scale and raise the G to a G# to get that E7 sound. It actually works incredibly well for bop lines, though most poeple seem 1) confused or 2) uninterested by it as a concept. Ah well, works for me.

    To me, it's really best to understand the II and IV functions to be interchangeable. That has a lot of 'low hanging fruit' attached to it. IIm7 = IV6 and IIm7b5 = IVm6 are great things to understand.

    Fourthwise motion is a development of 7-6 suspensions down the scale. This is baroque harmony, basically.

    Cm7 Cm6 Bbmaj7 Bbmaj6 Am7b5 Ao7 Gm