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Improvisation is a complex and thoughtful result of a good vocabulary, an understanding of how, when and why to use the elements of that vocabulary and mastery to the point where the ear is a guiding force in what is created. It's a very personal process.
When Sco got his gig at NYU, I congratulated him and he said "We'll see how I do. You know someone told me jazz is something that is learned but it can't be taught." and we laughed. Transcription? Be bop or not? Copy vs innovate? That debate is Not the point of this thread.
I'd like to see if there's an interest in a study group here wherein we'd take a dense etude of melodic and harmonic devices, I'm thinking the Fishman sax etudes, and use them as the basis of a practical learning experience where we can, phrase by phrase all contribute to observation, self discovery and sharing.
I recently took the Greg Fishman jazz etudes out again; as an antidote for rote non contextual transcription I so often see students encouraged to undertake. I'll add that if transcription brings you joy, far be it for me to stifle that in any way, but my belief and contention has always been that a MOLECULAR (musical Wittengenstein in a way) approach to acquiring the embellishment based bebop lexicon can lead to an awareness that is more creatively and personally fulfulling.
The purpose and approach would be simple: Take a given etude, present it to the group and share it in notation and if it's available, in a video form.
Then phrase by phrase, as a group, we can look at the harmonic structure, the underlying melodic phrase and the use of the devices within. If you know your embellishments, chime in- if not, we'll introduce them. In other words, take a look at "What's going on with that sound and how can I get it?"
I know there's a guitar version out there, complete with TAB. I will NOT use that, because the beauty of the guitar (and improvisation) is the awareness of options and the bane of many an advancing guitarist is to take someone else's approach as a given (rote learning).
My hope would be that we could look at each phrase, see how and why it works, then we'd all play with that building block inside of our own creative solo line thereby assimilating that tool through use. We could do this (introduce a phrase) every few days, adding more phrases and playing with them until we can feel we own it and can freely create something new with it.
I had a very wise mentor who never transcribed a note on paper, but he "lifted" many a passage in the effort to understand the inner workings. He had an enormous working vocabulary. He told students "Transcribe if it's useful to you, don't if it's not. And don't ever use someone else's phrases until you can make them something different, change them into your own."
My goals would be to create an awareness of lexicon (how do notes make a phrase), space (how does the absence of notes create the weight of what's played), rhythmic options (how does rhythm change a phrase?), direction (how does an awareness of where we're going open up the contour of a solo?), semantic intention (what kinds of phrases convey urgency, what kinds convey different meaning?) and aspects of awareness we can all contribute as we find them. You will build your own tool box. Assembly required.
Would anyone want to form a study group based on the dense concentration of material within these remarkable etudes?
Weigh in, and we might do this as a group!
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-05-2017 at 10:22 PM.
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06-05-2017 11:16 AM
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Very good idea!
I have a lot to learn besides on the guitar, but I can tell you guys that if you start this I am going to support You, however I can! Transcribing helps me a lot, so these phrases are also going to help me a lot. Lets do it! I am very curious about these licks.
MrBlues
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Sounds like a good idea, but is there a link to the Fishman Etudes that I can hear first?
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So here's one of the rhythm changes within, it's called State Street and if we wanted to use the rhythm changes form for the first one this is what we could do.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
We'd listen, and I'd post a copy of the head. We'd take a look at the first phrase and discuss what it is, where it begins in the measure, what the chord tones targeted, etc... and you could make permutations so you know how to employ it in a situation where it would work. Then one down, you've increased your vocabulary. Learn it all over the fingerboard and inside of a few of these, you've got a working toolset. By the time we get to the end, you can play the etude, but more importantly, every measure contains something you can own.
Rhythm changes
Green Dolphin Street
What do you think?
David
PS. If you find this works for you, get the book. It comes with a whole bunch of etudes based on standards that you can pick apart the same way. Plus it's a great treasure of very impressive and lyrical lines.Last edited by TH; 06-06-2017 at 06:22 AM.
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Yes, if you assimilate these, the transcription process becomes much easier. You can immediately recognize an upper neighbor combination and viola, there's a whole bunch of notes you already know... plus taking this in the way I'm proposing, we will see just how in a line, where within a phrase, when in your thought process you can employ the devices... within the space of a moment, then go about playing them without a pause. Originally Posted by mrblues
It's very good practice.
This way, we'll simultaneously increase your vocabulary in your ear, in your theoretical knowledge, in your fingers and as you practice them, be able to intelligently use them in context; not just as they might be encountered in one solo.
That's the goal.
David
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This sounds like it would be good for me. Not sure if I can keep up, but I would like to tag along and try not to get in the way!
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I'd like to tag along on this too if you'll have me. I like this idea a lot. Hope I can contribute semi regularly. I'm up for it.
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I'm interested. It looks like there are a few different volumes of Greg Fishman jazz saxophone etudes? Which one would we be using?
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Volume 1. It starts with Halsted Street, a blues in Bb. Originally Posted by morroben
There's also a version of this volume that comes with a guitar playing the solos along with the sax. The songs are the same and I don't know if there are charts in concert. I'd be using and posting the one where the first number is in Bb.
David
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Love the idea but why Fishman and not Lester Young or Coleman Hawkins or Gilad Hekselman etc etc? If you were learning eludes from the top shelf would be in for sure.
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Good question. Simple answer: though a good solo has a wealth of information, it's a tasteful composition that is not designed to distill pedagogical information for the purpose of study. Eludes are, by design, not performances but rather dense compositions of educational information Originally Posted by gggomez
if a performance played like a busy dense textbook, it would sound like everything and the kitchen sink.
Etudes are not so contextually organized. What we will study will allow the tools to be accessible and the student to be able to do the filtering process.
It may indeed be better for you to learn from a complete solo. That's not my approach here.
Chopin, Bach, many have written etudes for study. Greg Fishman is a very good player who wrote very well organized etudes.
I also plan to discuss each passage in detail. Not present a block of melody to be learned as a passage per se but for the constructive/re-constructive possibilities.
This approach might very likely not be for you. I'd do this for anyone with that resonance.
One path to getting there.
David
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I like etudes. Learned a few Willie Thomas etudes, and they are like you say...working specific devices and at a specific graded level of difficulty etc.
A solo is a different beast, different purpose. It should have an arc, variety - in terms of many numerous factors. probably worth noting the differences between a solo (or regular composition otherwise) and an etude.
You can make an etude out of specific posts of a solo, and that's probably worth a thread at some point as well...
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Too, great solos are great for what they DONT put in. Great etudes are great for what they Do incorporate Originally Posted by gggomez
David
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So let's go for it.
We can pick a song form that an etude is built on. We can proceed at leisure on this and see how it goes.
What's anyone want? A Train? Blues? Rhythm Changes?
I'll post what's relevant but will add that the Fishman book is a GREAT source for melodic devices which he lays out in a terrific introduction. Think about getting it at some point. If this thread is sucessful, it'll make a good template for your unlocking the secrets of any of the etudes we don't do.
(I'm not affiliated with the author in any way...)
Here we go
David
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David,
I would be interested, though I am not sure if I could keep up as an eternal beginner. But I guess I would learn a lot. For me, a Blues would be the best start.
I feel the need to say: I am so thankful for your tireless efforts in sharing and teaching here. And I guess a lot of other forumites are too. Your way of acting is the soul of this forum! Even more as some important voices fell silent or have been driven out of the forum lately. The only negative aspect is that I sometimes feel bad because I am only taking and can't give anything back...
Robert
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My vote would be either that rhythm changes you posted or a blues, but I'm down for whatever.
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So we begin. A blues. The lead sheet I've posted below is written in C concert. The three YouTube examples are from the book, Greg Fishman the author playing unaccompanied and the guitar version.
Familiarize yourself with the tune but it will be the structures within that I'll ultimately be isolating and putting out for everyone to employ and play with.
David
on guitar
I will NOT address the fingering on the video in these posts. There are lots of ways to play this etude; you'll do it your own way before long.
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I will hang out at the back of the class. My participation will depend on how much time I have to put in. I am too many study groups already. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Okay. I'm having a great time with this one. I'm not at 208 yet without little fumbles. I've spent a lot of time on fingerings as I'm finding that has a lot to do with making it swing.
Actually, the number of fingering variations is interesting to me. I'm starting to see that I am getting a little distracted by that, but I have a very workable fingering system that is working for me so I'll stick with that for now.
As to the phrasing, this is really eye opening. I'm already starting to take little fragments and adjust and modify them to suit different chord types or displace them rhythmically.
But I want to push myself to get this exercise up to tempo and really make it swing.
As far as the study group goes, are we going to take phrases sequentially through the piece from the top? There is a lot of exloration to do here in one etude. This is really going to help me get out of "ramble" mode on my soloing. I can tell that already. Looking forward to hearing how its going for others.
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I'm going to take these etudes one phrase at a time. For those who are familiar with the language of bebop, classical or melodic embellishments, feel free to chime in on what you think is going on. This is a community effort!
When I started listening to jazz, it was the playing of Clifford Brown that pulled me in. How DID he think like that? As I studied the jazz language that he worked with, I realized that embellishment structures provided note groupings that acted like units to propel, direct, shade or rhythmicize a lyric line, and in knowing that vocabulary simplified the thinking process to a huge degree. It was like having a good vocabulary of descriptive adjectives and adverbs you can use in a conversation to colour and inform a thought, create poetry from a statement.
These etudes are comprised of assembled lexicon. I intend on breaking them down one phrase at a time and taking a look at them:
Rhythmically
Melodically
Functionally
Semantically
and finally as ways that you can re-shape. So each embellishment can be looked at and transposed, transformed and reworked to become many more, and then once in your ear as a concept, fluidly employed in your own solos as easily as a new word someone taught you the day before.
Please chime in and let's build a working vocabulary that's truly your own. It's your solos that we're working from and anyone can build a working vocabulary this way.
David
First Phrase:
4 bar phrase with a pickup
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Pickups. A great way to take a running start at a phrase before the bar line. You can use a pickup to set up the tonality of a bar/change even before it starts. It's like a conversation where you say "Tell you what..." , it sets you up. As a matter of fact this pickup kinda sounds like the phrase "Tell you what..." and it begins in the previous (before beat 1 in this case) measure.
Try to put a pickup on the end of one change and have it open the door to the next change before the bar line. A good sound to break up that boring Start a phrase on beat one kind of thing.
This one announces the key of C by running up from the 5th and 7,1. Nice phrase, eh? Now you can play in the key of C (C7 here) and your burden of outlining the chord is freed.
I'll move to the C7 to Dmin next post. Contributions by y'all are more than welcome! Talk about the thought process when you're soloing... that's what we're developing.
David
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Love it. Grooviest jazz EtudeI I have heard.
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I like how the anacrusis starts on the and of 3 then bar 1 on the and of 2 and bar 5 on the and of 1
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I see the pick up and the first bar phrase emphasizing the major tonality of the C (as opposed to the dominant 7). We have the major 7 in the pick up followed by the A minor triad which is implying a C6 sound to me and holding that major blues sound - no b7 in sight. Pretty cool.
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I like it! Just so I understand the format we want to follow:
TruthHertz, you will post the pages as pics of the score and we will work on them? And there is a Youtube track for each etude?
I don't mind supporting the authors by buying the book, but it's good to know that we are starting with or without a book in hand.
We'll post ourselves as we feel we have mastered sections (similar to the Aebersold and Conti study groups)?
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