Why study bebop?

[henryrobinett]

Of course, but why are people studying jazz these days?

I have no idea. But they are. There are some amazing young musicians in college and out playing. Just amazing.

[mr. beaumont]

Absolutely...and do they sound like bebopoers?

That's the whole problem with jazz fogeys (and this isn't directed at you, you get it)

I was a painting major. We studied the Renaissance, we even made copies...but we never showed them. Never.

Jazz has a great history...know it, respect it, heck, study it, if you're serious. But every time I see somebody here say "I like so and so, but he doesn't sound like (insert dead guy name here) I wanna beat my head against the wall.

To keep the art collorlation....people treat "jazz" like it's "impressionism," or something, and anything that isnt,isnt.

I think jazz is painting in general, or something.

[morroben]

Guys you can't come to any agreement if you do not describe how you understand the subject...

We can endlessly say: I hear it's bop, I don't hear it's bop... etc.

Without pointing out particular style features in particular piece of music it will hardly be productive.

Agreed! I'm relatively new to all this jazz stuff, and genuinely don't know what bebop is. I hear the term thrown around a lot, but have no idea what it means, or what characteristics to listen for to clue me in.
It's rhythm? It's ii-V's?
Most jazz has rhythm and ii-V's, so what is it about the rhythm or ii-V's that set bebop apart?
I've heard folks refer to Sonny Rollins as bebop. He's one of my favorites, and I've probably listened to him more than any other jazz artist. But I still couldn't tell you what makes him bebop and others not.

[henryrobinett]

Absolutely...and do they sound like bebopoers?

That's the whole problem with jazz fogeys (and this isn't directed at you, you get it)

I was a painting major. We studied the Renaissance, we even made copies...but we never showed them. Never.

Jazz has a great history...know it, respect it, heck, study it, if you're serious. But every time I see somebody here say "I like so and so, but he doesn't sound like (insert dead guy name here) I wanna beat my head against the wall.

To keep the art collorlation....people treat "jazz" like it's "impressionism," or something, and anything that isnt,isnt.

I think jazz is painting in general, or something.

Absolutely. People who are obsessed with having to sound like XYZ drive me nuts too. And some of those guys did sound boppish. Like they knew the language. And me? I'm not a vocab guy. I play, or try to play intuitively, so my homework is a mess. But I've studied the language, mostly because my study wasn't centralized on guitar, but rather on the language of jazz. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm clearly in the minority. But for me, jazz guitar is a corner case. When you separate out from the microcosm of guitar, the music looks and sounds a whole lot different. Guitar just has it's own thing going on. Cool. But it's sitting over there, not with the rest of the gang. By and large.

[Hep To The Jive]

That's it. GUITAR!!!!! Bejesus. That's my point. GUITAR! If we're studying jazz, it's jazz, not guitar. The most important period, in terms of the development of the language of jazz, I maintain, is bebop. And 95% of guitar players missed it. I know this is a jazz guitar forum, but I've never met -- not here, anywhere - more isolated groups of musicians. Guitar. Guitar, as if nothing else exists. Guitar is a small peg in a huge wheel. Why should guitar players not have to study it?

No guitarists do study it, in college, or otherwise. I did, and tons of others did and do. But to me pure be bop on guitar sounds... meh. In the 50's many tried too. I think guys like Pat Metheny figured it all out and moved on and doing things that much more exciting than those who stuck in bebop.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, which is why I'm saying, study bop, if it holds something for you, but if not, listen, respect, understand, move ont. It's not the be all end all. Hell, imho, it's where shit STARTED to get really cool.

Jazz moved faster than any artform, ever. That's scary for folks...we have innovators who are still alive!

[henryrobinett]

Well for me, I hear guitar players who just sound wrong. It's cool, but phrasing is a mess. It's guitar. And I'm kind of known as a fusion player. I play it all, Funk, rockish tones, modern jazz, modal, out there. But nothing came together stylistically FOR ME until I started understanding bop. The lines and breaks, phrasing started making a LOT more sense. I don't really play bop. But to play JAZZ, I gotta know it.

I keep trying to tell my students, who get very myopic, that just because you study something doesn't mean you're going to PLAY like that. But the wealth of information is going to do you some good. But guitar players only want to study who they like. It's like a pianist wanting to play concert piano, that he only wants to play Beethoven. Guess what, buddy? There's a whole repertoire you gotta learn.

[mr. beaumont]

Well for me, I hear guitar players who just sound wrong. It's cool, but phrasing is a mess. It's guitar. And I'm kind of known as a fusion player. I play it all, Funk, rockish tones, modern jazz, modal, out there. But nothing came together stylistically FOR ME until I started understanding bop. The lines and breaks, phrasing started making a LOT more sense. I don't really play bop. But to play JAZZ, I gotta know it.

I keep trying to tell my students, who get very myopic, that just because you study something doesn't mean you're going to PLAY like that. But the wealth of information is going to do you some good. But guitar players only want to study who they like. It's like a pianist wanting to play concert piano, that he only wants to play Beethoven. Guess what, buddy? There's a whole repertoire you gotta learn.

But when is it "wrong?" All the time? When playing a bop tune in a non bop style?

[henryrobinett]

But when is it "wrong?" All the time? When playing a bop tune in a non bop style?

The phrasing. The rhythm gets turned around. The accents are displaced. the "Be-Bop" is gone. Like when Dizzy scats, or Clark Terry or Ella scats. They put the accents in the right places. Boo-Bop- de, dop-a lop. Some of the guitar players don't understand that stuff, whether it's really bebop or modern jazz. Tenors players have it. Piano players, trumpet players. Maybe it started getting really bad with fusion and McLaughlin. Alternate picking attempted to even everything out. Straight 8ths. It's not even in the language guitar players talk about. Believe me, the horn players do.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't know that anyone here is arguing against learning the basis of bop. I do see guys saying, "yeah, it's great to learn it, but it isn't the be-all and end-all."

I can't play bop to save my life. I understand the value of studying it, which is one reason why I'm here at this forum at all. It is to me the core of jazz. But that doesn't mean that guys who don't do bop ain't making jazz.

Earlier, the question arose, "how do you define bebop?", but it seems to me the real question is, "how do you define jazz?"

Me, I'm pretty easy-going. Give me a slinky feel and some outside notes, I'll shuffle on to Buffalo. But I'm no jazzer, by anyone's standards. I just like the stuff that makes me move my ass.

I'm not sure that can be taught.

[henryrobinett]

I never said guy's who can't play bop can't play jazz. Did I? I mean seriously. Did I ever say that? I don't think anyone has said that. But there's worlds within worlds when you learn to play it.

I believe anything can be taught. Anything. First you, the teacher, has to be able to figure out what the problem is. I think I'm good at that. Debugging the musical code. There's a bug. What is it?


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[beetle_rist]

I personally believe monk's bebop tunes are some of the most most demanding tunes to play. The musicianship with a group, soloing and rhythm of coarse.

[Jazzstdnt]

Seams Wiki is wrong about it:



No mention of specific rhythmic nuance, but then, there is use of scales?

I always thought "to Bop" was to play on chord, using chord tones and extensions with swinging shuffle feel, using chromatics and enclosure figures to connect and for interest and implied speed. Not much nuance in that thought.
Be Bop as a style I think of as something after Armstrong and Goodman, before solo Miles, excluding larger orchestras, Gypsy stuff and whatever.

Seriously and honestly, I have no idea how to tell Bop from not bop, with any oldish fast jazz tune, that is not obviously swing, modern, or something ... ?!
I would really appreciate example of "Bop" vs. "Something almost bop, but no cigar" with possible explanation,
for example ... at 1m 19s there is bop figure ... at 45s there is bop-like figure that did not quite make it due failure in rhythm nuance ... something like that?

well - ripping tempos, hyper frequent key center changes, and super fast, busy soloing are trademarks too, generally speaking of course.

[Jazzstdnt]

Curious, does anyone hear any bebop influence from guitar solo in this track?

Rhythmically I guess, yeah, at some points.

And the rest (wonderfully) not. I too have this CD since it came out. Sounds great, no?

[Jazzstdnt]

I think that the OP was asking: "should we study bebop in a jazz studies college program - at all"? Most agreed, "sure, it's a historically important aspect of the music". (Jazz music, that is).

I think that most also agreed that bebop is no longer a focus in the pro jazz world (duh).

I believe that the same is also true of most college programs, even though some seem to be of the opinion that bebop is a big focus in such programs. I haven't observed that. I have observed that the big jazz programs moved on to post-bop, ECM, fusion, World, a long time ago. I think that many contemporary or "jazz" programs are trying to decide on just exactly what their focus should be for the 21rst century.

Outside of classical music, real musicianship has experienced a sharp decline in importance since the mid-70s.

[Eric Wade]

Bebop is more important for people who want to know how to play Jazz. This style has complex harmonies and frenetic rhythms making it stood out from different popular music. It takes more training and practice to make Bepop Scale sounds good. Once you learn to internalize this style, you gonna be the lord of Jazz.

[cosmic gumbo]

I'll stand by this statement, as a listener and a player... if your jazz is not informed by bebop, it is lacking. Period.

[Hep To The Jive]

Once you learn to internalize this style, you gonna be the lord of Jazz.

Nah, you just gonna be the lord of bebop. I already have enough experience to say some excellent bebop players suck at trad jazz (as an example! I've heard reports some suck at funky/soul jazz too). The key word, of course is SOME, so I don't generalize- plenty of versatile players around. Yet, it's fare to say mastering bebop doesn't guarantee all around jazz greatness.

[henryrobinett]

Nah, you just gonna be the lord of bebop. I already have enough experience to say some excellent bebop players suck at trad jazz (as an example! I've heard reports some suck at funky/soul jazz too). The key word, of course is SOME, so I don't generalize- plenty of versatile players around. Yet, it's fare to say mastering bebop doesn't guarantee all around jazz greatness.

Nothing does. That's up to you. But in mastering the most demanding it's easier to then master other styles. But you won't be able to play funk unless you studying playing funk. And it ain't easy. But if you know blues you just have to figure out the funk part. But the MUSIC you have. Nothing is going to get harder than bop. You can apply some. You can't play. But you know what you could.

Some bop musicians are the WORST rock, pop, funk players. But that's not bop's fault.


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[christianm77]

The phrasing. The rhythm gets turned around. The accents are displaced. the "Be-Bop" is gone. Like when Dizzy scats, or Clark Terry or Ella scats. They put the accents in the right places. Boo-Bop- de, dop-a lop. Some of the guitar players don't understand that stuff, whether it's really bebop or modern jazz. Tenors players have it. Piano players, trumpet players. Maybe it started getting really bad with fusion and McLaughlin. Alternate picking attempted to even everything out. Straight 8ths. It's not even in the language guitar players talk about. Believe me, the horn players do.

This. This is the kind of stuff I'm always banging on about.

It doesn't mean I am able to do it but at least I am aware of it. There is always a gulf between what I want to acheive with my playing and where it actually is... Anyway with that disclaimer over... Yadda yadda yadda.

Not everyone wants to swing, fine!

The problem is when players assume that it's possible to swing without targeting specifically phrasing, rhythm, articulation etc in a detailed and music centric way.

So I think players have this weird relationship with the idea of swing, of swingingness. You get all kinds of defensive attitudes, and I think part of the reason is that it's considered this Big Mystery.

Well if it's such a Mystery how come pianists and horn players can mostly swing and guitar players seem to have trouble? What do they know? And what about drummers for that matter?

Also, it's not an either or thing.. It's a matter of degree, how deep you get into it. It's an area of study so deep and so fundamental, if I could only work on one thing, it would have to be that.

[Vladan]

After all, it's a matter of taste and preference. You can not know if player did it all "wrong" on purpose. You can just like it, accept it, or not.

Like that clip above Cosmo shared.
While listening I was thinking ... does not start like be-bop, but this sounds like be bop line, it's weird, I like it ... over all, not historical, but 21st century bop ...

Only when Mr. Beaumont commented on it i slapped my self on a forehead ... I was not even aware it was Metheny on guitar.

[christianm77]

After all, it's a matter of taste and preference. You can not know if player did it all "wrong" on purpose. You can just like it, accept it, or not.

Aboslutely... Between the intention and the act falls the shadow.

What you might consider a mistake or an irritating tick in your own playing might be the very thing someone else likes.

People are always saying to me how 'gypsy jazz' I sound... I have to bite my tongue... I'm not a gypsy jazz guitar player... Well is that for me to say?

My intention is to play clean, in time and with interesting rhythms and notes that describe harmony to some extent.

So, whatever comes in stylistically is unintended. I haven't listened to Django for about 2 or 3 years lol.

Like that clip above Cosmo shared.
While listening I was thinking ... does not start like be-bop, but this sounds like be bop line, it's weird, I like it ... over all, not historical, but 21st century bop ...

Only when Mr. Beaumont commented on it i slapped my self on a forehead ... I was not even aware it was Metheny on guitar.

And TBH even as a not particular fan (as in his playing doesn't touch me, not that I think he's anything other than great) I wouldn't want Metheny to sound like a 1950's guitarist. Metheny has certainly been influenced heavily by bop, although what he has taken away from it might be different from what someone else has taken from it.

So why spend so much time studying the history? Well, for me, maybe it gives me a new direction, inspiration and a sense of continuity.

[destinytot]

An obnoxious racket is described as 'authentic blues' in this clip (from the movie Ghost World ), but I see it as an object lesson of interest to the student of bop..

For me, this manifests in bebop as sublimely elegant control of the tension of opposites.

[pkirk]

Outside of classical music, real musicianship has experienced a sharp decline in importance since the mid-70s.

You probably are referring to pop music here, and its increasingly being assembled in the studio. But in jazz and its progeny, musicianship is at an all time high, in my opinion.

[henryrobinett]

This. This is the kind of stuff I'm always banging on about.

It doesn't mean I am able to do it but at least I am aware of it. There is always a gulf between what I want to acheive with my playing and where it actually is... Anyway with that disclaimer over... Yadda yadda yadda.

Not everyone wants to swing, fine!

The problem is when players assume that it's possible to swing without targeting specifically phrasing, rhythm, articulation etc in a detailed and music centric way.

So I think players have this weird relationship with the idea of swing, of swingingness. You get all kinds of defensive attitudes, and I think part of the reason is that it's considered this Big Mystery.

Well if it's such a Mystery how come pianists and horn players can mostly swing and guitar players seem to have trouble? What do they know? And what about drummers for that matter?

Also, it's not an either or thing.. It's a matter of degree, how deep you get into it. It's an area of study so deep and so fundamental, if I could only work on one thing, it would have to be that.

I can't do it either, but I've been working hard at it the last couple or few years. As I said before Chick Corea told me, "guitar players all seem to have bad time. I don't know why that is." I THINK one of the things he meant was guitar players don't know how to articulate the rhythm. Whether it's bop or pop. We're happy to just be able to get the notes, and then we're ecstatic if we can play the notes FAST. No consideration for how we're ARTICULATING the dynamics of those notes. And when we do, we're just trying to do what we can to copy a guitar solo, which also might have the articulation screwy. Try Rollins, Bird, Miles, Hubbard, Red Garland, Dizzy, Dexter, Brecker, Corea, Herbie. And when they dig into those notes the rhythm section really understands. I've seen rhythm sections get anxious when I used to play, or other guitar players. Understanding jazz guitar players RHYTHMS and phrasing isn't easy for jazz rhythm sections. You can see worry creased across their brow. Now, when I'm playing with guys who don't know me, there's the frown, then it disappears. "Ah, this guys got it." I'm just telling you all what sometimes goes un said.

I had a rehearsal last night with a piano player. I was telling him about my frustration with the way guitar players, phrase, play rhythm and articulate. That trained pianists, horn players learn to read and work on articulations. It's part of the music. He laughed. You know those great unspoken moments? He said, "Yeah, I know EXACTLY what you mean!"