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Originally Posted by Rhythmisking
Jazz studies degrees not existing 40 years ago? Depending on what you mean by "kid", yes there were. A short list includes UNT, Berklee, University of Miami, GIT. There were no doubt more.
Art comes from the edges of culture? - Nah, it comes from wherever creativity springs, it's not a social justice thing.
Sacrificing life for art? - Well sometimes yes, and sometimes no. Miles was a dentist's son, Mendelssohn was a rich kid, etc., etc., etc.
YMMV? Yes indeed, it does.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 08-04-2017 at 12:08 AM.
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08-04-2017 12:03 AM
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He's the one. Coleman Hawkins was kind of there. He was definitely swing, but a really advanced player who kind of transitioned. Lucky Thompson. Chu Berry. Dexter Gordon actually.
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OK, works for me. But the Gospel According To Post #190 seems to be that:
- Jazz education is very recent
- True art only springs from the poor
- True art is defined only as something entirely original
- True art only comes from those who sacrifice their lives for it (whatever that means)
Well, I think that's all very romantic and is certainly true in some cases, but in the end is largely bunk.
YMMV
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Well given we define bebop as the style of Charlie Parker (pretty much) it would be impossible for Charlie Parker to be a true bebop player. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Certainly his sense of phrasing is beyond swing.
There were many players at that time who were interested in pushing the music forward into something different. They tended to rally under the bebop banner and be influenced by Parker, but I get the feeling that the history isn't quite as neat as the history books suggest. There had been something bubbling under during the early 40s that went largely unrecorded.
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As I understand it, Dizzy played with Cab Calloway and another band with drummer Kenny Clarke. KC would drop these bombs most people hated, including Cab, but Dizzy loved them because it forced you to phrase totally differently.
Dizzy asked him where this stuff came from. Dizzy was a very modern player of course, playing fast and high and experimenting with harmony. KC told about this friend. They get together and have this thing going on. Diz came over to Bud Powell's apartment where they used to jam. Often Monk was there. Or sometimes they met at Monk's.
Eventually this new guy came to town. Clarke told Diz he'd have to met him. Bird came to one of their jam sessions and for some reason they didn't hit it off. It took sometime before they got together again. But the next time was the right time.
Dizzy said that they had already developed the music by the time they met Bird, but he had the voice. He had developed entirely separately, yet they were doing the same thing. But it was Bird's phrasing and lyrical quality that gave bop its true voice.
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I looked it up - and it is pointed out in the comments section that in fact Picou's solo is an adaptation of an earlier piccolo line. (Dodds plays Picou's line verbatim at 2:17. Early 20's jazz solos were set pieces, not improvised, and this line was in the jazz repertoire by 1923....)
So - oral tradition, history... Who knows how far back these devices go, or who came up with them? But there's a lineage there, right?
That's part of the reason why the vibe - 'come up with your own shit, jazz is all about being original MAAAAANN' is disturbing to me. There were few musicians as original as Charlie Parker, and quotes from earlier musicians are so rife in his playing it's hard to work out sometimes where they stop and the original material begins. I reckon you could say the same about Shakespeare.
There is such a thing as putting the cart before the horse, and I'd being doing it for much of my early life in jazz.
I don't want to be the kind of jazz dickhead who goes around judging people who don't know this stuff - but all I will say is that I believe increasing my limited knowledge of the tradition gives me more freedom of expression, not less.
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I can't listen to the YouTube example yet, but none of this stuff springs from nowhere. It was often said if you speed up Lester Young it'll sound like Charlie Parker. Bird was heavily influenced by Prez.
As for none of those breaks being improvised I'd have to disagree. Louis Armstrong talked about a break he and King Oliver used to do that would blow people's minds. No one knew how they did it because every time it was different and Louis followed Oliver so well, AS IF it was worked out. But no one ever suspected that it was because it was improvised.
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I want to be in the rooms where it happened. Bud Powell's or Monk's apartments. Those five were the founders of be bop. The room where it happened.
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Especially since both were guys who when it came to music pretty much only spoke with their instruments. Most the musicians from that period didn't say much, it was all about playing. Probably has a lot to do with the Boppers and Post-Boppers dislike for the codification of Jazz. Jazz was to be taught via the master and apprentice, the bands were the schools for young musicians. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I think Dizzy did a fair bit of teaching, but not explaining everything. Originally Posted by docbop
There's a difference between teaching and explaining.
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Red Rodney fan here:
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I still think Earl Hines is maybe the missing bebop link.
Consider---inserting extra notes for smooth phrasing was nothing new, e.g. Gershwin's "But Not for Me" has a perfect little 5, sharp 5, 6 run followed in the next phrase by the natural 3rd off the minor chord. This is 1930. The 2 phrases are for the lyrics "With love to lead the way, I've found more clouds of gray."
Hines to me, is the most outstanding e.g. of a soloist, playing aggressively against the beat...Louie A. did not...Prez, kinda was irregular---not an aggressive against the beat feeling. (Listen to Frankie Trumbauer, if you want to know where Lester Y. got his influence...he admitted that he wore out Trumbauer records.)
Hines had a nationwide broadcast, and we KNOW Tatum listened to it....also Hines had advanced harmonic understanding.
Diz and Bird, and others, apprenticed with the Hines band.
The "Fatha" was there...at the outset...first the tuba, then the bowed string bass, then the walking bass...his adventurous soloing took it to the next level, rhythmically.
Hines career kinda stalled...Billy Eckstine came into his band, and became a big star....Hines became a sideman for a while again with Louie A....his career from say 1948-62 is inconsistent. Unjustly neglected, IMO.Last edited by goldenwave77; 08-05-2017 at 08:20 AM.
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Hines was very advanced rhythmically
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According to Mike Longo who worked with him for 20 years, Dizzy tended to teach in short terse questions and aphorisms - almost koans. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Hal Galper talks about something similar in general jazz culture.
The point is not to explain something clearly (the way I tend to teach, at least when I get it right) but rather to point the student in the direction where they can find out for themselves.
in terms of harmony etc - I don't know, I wasn't there. It's possible Dizzy's approach changed - I know was always viewed as a theorist and teacher by his peers.Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2017 at 05:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
From what I've read Dizzy's talked more than others but still not the level people talk today. Those Jazz chats I get to hang on can be hours long talking about a lot of things, but details are at a minimum more about where to look, or what to listen for answers than actual answers.
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Benson always plays bop. Especially when he's playing pop-funk.
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OK great....because I can say that if young( or old lol) Guitarists learned to Play the Rhythmic Flow of Benson or close ....( NOT necessarily the lines ) they would be able to Play on about *93.675% of all the Dance and Danceable Music from the 1950s to say.... Originally Posted by christianm77
last Tuesday including Latin, R&B, House, Hip Hop, Pop etc etc and oh yeah Jazz.
* Accurate to +/- 20 % ( or I may have made it up but you get the point ).
They need to learn and speak the Rhythms not get into a Lifetime Study ...
So being able to Solo and Play cool Rhythms over these Styles would be beneficial IF the Courses were aimed more toward Rhythms and Melodic Cadences rather than agonizing over every Note the Pioneers played.
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Ran Blake from NEC has a very interesting - and, I think, very intelligent - book called The Primacy of the Ear. Other than Blake's excellent insights on art and musical creation, he lays out a programme for ear training over a period of months or years. I've only dabble with it so far but it is high on my priority list. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Just looked that book up on Amazon and have to admit, that sounds pretty interesting. Originally Posted by m_d
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Reasons to study bebop
- because it hurts
- because you were told to
- because there's an exam
- guilt
- because you can feel superior to all the players who haven't
- to punish the heathen
- skiddly-bop
- ba-doodly-booba-dooba
- hats
- real gone frames
- it's music that sounds like it's taking the piss out of you behind your back
- to make you a better progressive metal Djent 8-string player
- to annoy your CST loving parents
- needlessly elaborate music
- RIDE CYMBAL SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
- it's a lot more fun than swing
- it's algebra for people who don't like money
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I just realized that Reasons 2,3,4 are my case. I was sent on a guilt trip by my classmates and teachers who told me i won't pass the graduation exam because I suck at it. Ever since I pretend I like bebop.
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Ok my confession ....
I still don't know what Bop is .....
It sounds like fast swing to me
I can maybe hear the drummers are doing something
a bit different , dropping bombs , pushing more maybe
The harmony and lines don't seem that rad cp to
say soloists with say Basie , Lockjaw or whatever ....
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Well, all the first generation bopper came out of swing... Originally Posted by pingu
Have you transcribed?
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Have you listened to much 30's music? It's sound very different rhythmically from the 40s stuff. Originally Posted by pingu
But yeah, there's a strong case to say Coleman Hawkins, Tatum etc were already playing a lot of the harmonic vocab.... Django too....
And Bop was an evolution of the Kansas City style. It's possible to hear a lot of bop in Lester Young, no coincidence of course...
(1936 - rhythm is still pretty tight and stacato - listen to the drumming)
(1946 still swing but getting boppy. Rhythm loosing up and smoothing out a bit. Just play on 1.5x speed and it's basically there
The main difference is the phrasing was a bit wilder in bop and they dropped the rhythm guitar as it sounds crap with a big ride cymbal.
(1945 - swing era was still in... err.... full swing really. It had another 3 years or so. Check out the big ride cymbal. Bass is pretty swing era though.)
To get a real sense of the transition, I recommend Coleman Hawkin's the Bebop Years.Last edited by christianm77; 11-04-2017 at 10:48 AM.
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This article mostly talks about pre-war jazz but is worth checking out in terms of what he says about drumming and rhythm sections. Great article...
My Jazz Can Beat Up Your Jazz: What's the Difference Between Hot Jazz, Trad jazz, New Orleans Jazz, and 1920's Jazz?
Also post-war jazz/pre war jazz?
There's not a huge amount of water under the bridge. When Art Pepper plays Jazz Me Blues or Jimmy Raney plays Dinah, or Warne Marsh and Lee Konitz play Tickletoe, they are demonstrating the musical tradition that they grew up on. They knew those tunes...
And yet there are pro jazz musicians who don't know that Donna Lee is a tune on Indiana, an that Indiana was one of the first jazz records ever, or that one of Parker's classic lines on rhythm changes evolved from Picout's line on High Society. I think this is a shame, personally. That's why I like Ethan Iverson's blog as he's a total history nerd!
Anyway - I feel bebop benefits from a good knowledge of swing. I feel modern jazz needs bebop, and so on. So for me, none of it's in isolation.
OTOH just as you can have blues without jazz but you can't have jazz without blues, it's perfectly possible to only play an early style and not go any further.
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