The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Oh well, awesome sounding words are of little to no musical value to anyone.

    Imagine in 4/4, the soloist is grouping phrases in 3/4. When they play an accent on beat 4,
    in their mind anyway, they are playing a downbeat and not an anticipation.
    There can exist several layers of rhythmic orientation.

    Not all 4/4 rhythm sections are equal. It is said sometimes that the 4th beat is the Cuban 1.
    In bop we can do the same on the +'s

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammo
    This is a complex issue. Won't make it too complex, as es, it was really the rhythm section's primitive understanding of the chord changes - and there is a limited set of change styles, e.g. Rhythm, Blues, Swedish, Cherokee, that every player has to master
    Hi Ammo , what are Swedish changes ?

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Hi Ammo , what are Swedish changes ?
    Anything by Abba

  5. #104

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    Ok blues for alice changes sometimes referred to as a Swedish blues.... there's a reason but it has slipped my memory

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Anything by Abba
    Who's Abba ?

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ok blues for alice changes sometimes referred to as a Swedish blues.... there's a reason but it has slipped my memory
    OK , Parker or Bird blues I call it
    Thankyou Mr christian

  8. #107
    I think chord tones on downbeat is not God's law. It's a good principle or another tool that can be useful. People tend to think only this....only that.... why not do both?

    Enviado desde mi SM-T550 mediante Tapatalk

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
    I think chord tones on downbeat is not God's law. It's a good principle or another tool that can be useful. People tend to think only this....only that.... why not do both?

    Enviado desde mi SM-T550 mediante Tapatalk
    Actually if you spend any serious time transcribing jazz lines by jazz musicians - esp. horn players - c1948-1958, scales with chord tones on the downbeat are a recurrent trope. It's everywhere. The more I transcribe it the more I see. This is not true of the opposite :-)

    I think of this era as the bop common practice era. Language is very consistently used at this time.

    If you like bebop and want to properly learn the language, this is a crucial thing to master, however you frame it.

    And of course, you can subvert it.

  10. #109

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    I think if you need to literally practice putting chord tones on downbeats, you haven't done nearly enough listening.

  11. #110

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    I think many bebop leaning players (and many others) are trying to develop and master a flow of uninterrupted swinging eighth notes as their default technique, and then mix it up rhythmically from there with whatever...space, different accents and patterns...but after nailing that flow. Is that putting the cart before the horse? I don't know, but jazz is first of all rhythmic, so mastering the default rhythm of the style seems kind of fundamental.


    Some thought has to go into that flow, because not only do you need to take ownership of where you place the chord tones, you have to put it into the rhythmic perspective that, if they go on the downbeat, part of that jazz flow has to do with then accenting the offbeat. I don't see it as such a simple task, and I don't hear that flow in guitarists as naturally as in horn players for some reason. I think lots of guitarists are lacking and they don't know why, and this is one of the reasons.

    One observation on the problem has to do with many guitarist's natural tendency to use downstrokes on downbeats, even though the accents are actually on the upbeats/offbeats....or as we say, the accent is on the "and"...


    "Learning Swing Feel"

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think if you need to literally practice putting chord tones on downbeats, you haven't done nearly enough listening.
    OK, that tell that to Barry Harris and his students then, lol.

    But beyond an appeal to authority? I think the two things complement each other. While I'd be the first to say that more listening is the best way to learn, the reason why I practice this is that it relates to the music I listen to.

    It's an essential part of the scale technique of that music, what separates it out from the freer modern scale use. And it's not easy to do, at least not at first.

    Making scales rhythmic is a basic problem in Western Music.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I think many bebop leaning players (and many others) are trying to develop and master a flow of uninterrupted swinging eighth notes as their default technique, and then mix it up rhythmically from there with whatever...space, different accents and patterns...but after nailing that flow. Is that putting the cart before the horse? I don't know, but jazz is first of all rhythmic, so mastering the default rhythm of the style seems kind of fundamental.


    Some thought has to go into that flow, because not only do you need to take ownership of where you place the chord tones, you have to put it into the rhythmic perspective that, if they go on the downbeat, part of that jazz flow has to do with then accenting the offbeat. I don't see it as such a simple task, and I don't hear that flow in guitarists as naturally as in horn players for some reason. I think lots of guitarists are lacking and they don't know why, and this is one of the reasons.

    One observation on the problem has to do with many guitarist's natural tendency to use downstrokes on downbeats, even though the accents are actually on the upbeats/offbeats....or as we say, the accent is on the "and"...


    "Learning Swing Feel"
    I absolutely agree on every level....

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, that tell that to Barry Harris and his students then, lol.
    I would, happily.

    Hey, students gotta have a curriculum, and Barry makes money from teaching, I get it. That's cool.

    But I find it hard to believe that anybody who plays good enough to even be in a situation where they're in a Barry Harris class finds that "chord tones on strong beats" is some sort of revelation. If it is, that's fucked up, and jazz education is a damn joke. Because if people were really listening and stealing licks from great solos (and like you said jeez--just pick one from '48 to '58, really) then that should be the stuff they're hearing in their head...I don't know how it can't be? It's literally WHAT JAZZ SOUNDS LIKE. You take that, and the rhythmic information from a few great solos...burn it into your brain...

    Jazz takes immersion. I honestly feel like teaching people to play lines where they carefully place the strong notes on the strong beats ("And now do that in all 12 keys, ok, kids?") is how you teach people to play jazz who don't actually listen to jazz. Maybe that's what music school is, nowadays, anyway? "I should learn some jazz cuz it'll help my hip-hop fusion Snarky Puppy meets Vulfpeck project?" I dunno. Maybe I should drink some coffee and shut up

  15. #114

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    The point here is not to play licks. The point is to construct bebop language from raw materials.

    There are plenty of people who play bop from records as well and that’s great. I play with a few of them.

    But one of them - one of the best bop players I know - said that in his opinion the amazing thing about Barry and his highest level students is that they could play bop language without playing licks. That kind of encouraged me to stick with this approach.

    Tbh I think you are just thinking ‘here is something I haven’t worked on, and I’m feeling vaguely guilty I haven’t worked on it so I’ll belittle it’ which is pretty much what I did before I started practicing it.

    Not that you ‘need’ to, per se. There’s only so many hours in your life. You sound great.

  16. #115

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    I think perhaps the emphatic tone of my earlier post might have encouraged you to be more emphatic yourself tbf

    But I stick by it.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    hip-hop fusion Snarky Puppy meets Vulfpeck project?"
    Bonus points for the Vulfpeck reference.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The point here is not to play licks. The point is to construct bebop language from raw materials.

    There are plenty of people who play bop from records as well and that’s great. I play with a few of them.

    But one of them - one of the best bop players I know - said that in his opinion the amazing thing about Barry and his highest level students is that they could play bop language without playing licks. That kind of encouraged me to stick with this approach.

    Tbh I think you are just thinking ‘here is something I haven’t worked on, and I’m feeling vaguely guilty I haven’t worked on it so I’ll belittle it’ which is pretty much what I did before I started practicing it.

    Not that you ‘need’ to, per se. You sound great. I don’t dig your attitude tho.
    Hey, I've had a shitty attitude for the longest, no offense taken here

    And I always exaggerate how worked up I get about things to make a point. I'm not actually particularly angry. I have my feet on a chair, and I'm listening to Vince Guaraldi in my empty classroom (no class this period)

    I'm not belittling the idea, though, you see that, right? What I'm honestly saying is "How can the concept not be obvious?" Because in my opinion, it's literally what jazz sounds like. Chord tones on strong beats, enclosures, passing chromatics, triplets, syncopation. It's like you can write it on a napkin and hand it to someone and say, "There it is, see you in 10,000 hours."

    But again, that's probably why nobody is signing up for my "Be somewhat tolerably decent in jazz in 10 short years" program.

  19. #118
    Walking bass lines also works with this approach of putting chord tones on the stronguest beats of the measure (1 and 3). Passing tones normally falls on beats 2 and 4.

    Enviado desde mi SM-T550 mediante Tapatalk

  20. #119

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    Sorry to keep blathering on... I'm really not in disagreement with your basic point Jeff... I thin it's possible to be a very high level bop player simply by listening to and learning solos and understanding them in your own way.

    First - I think the power of the BH approach is in the way it allows you to understand and take apart as well as design and build idiomatic bebop language. It represents a complete set of tools that I haven't personally seen anywhere else... But there's a lot of systems of jazz education I don't know anything about. I just latched on to Barry because it was there and it worked.

    Second - Barry is not the only person to ever talk about putting chord tones on the beat.... I mean there were fellas like Mozart obviously, but in jazz pedagogy the obvious example are David Baker and his bebop scales.

    Third - I think there is a tendency for internet generation young musicians to get very excited about 'concepts' (and Vulfpeck) - actually Barry's approach is kind of popular with younger musicians now. 10 years ago no-one gave a ****. Look at the excitement around the more or less completely useless Negative Harmony. There are these little music theory memes almost. I too feel cynical about them

    Fourthly - I don't want to be evangelical about Barry's approach. BUT - I do think that an understanding of lines beyond simply - 'this is a II-V-I lick with a #9 and a b9' - can give greater freedom in the long run, especially if you can hook that up with the ears. You might be clever enough to create a framework for understanding this...

    My own story is more complex. I started learning bop by learning solos and lines and taking them to pieces and transposing them etc. Bleeding chunks, jammed over chords without context.

    That worked well from the point of view of superficially playing 'bebop' language, but I started to get a bit frustrated about the lick-iness of my playing.

    But I'd been going to Barry's classes on and off for years and didn't really 'get' them. It was only when I put it together with the recordings that it made any sense at all, and actually I found his system to be better and easier to use than my own specific understandings, which slotted quite nicely into the BH stuff.

    In the short term I think this might have made be a slightly rigid player (too much strict scale/downbeat stuff can make you sound a bit square) but I think it's starting to open up a lot more. You have to practice these things in a way that is flexible, not 'baked in.' I believe that watching how Barry roasts his class on this material is as important as the material itself. Everything is at tempo.

    The fact that I can sit down with a line like and understand what's going on in a simple and clear way from the point of view of how the lines are constructed beyond a mere harmonic analysis is immensely helpful. (It might not seem simple from the unfamiliar terminology - which is a point of contention for me.)

    Anyway, (and I'm running long here) - being able to sequence added notes into scales to create rhythmically stronger lines is for me, is a fusion of both guitaristic and musical considerations. I have to practice this stuff on my instrument, just like triads and intervals through the scales, and so on.

  21. #120
    Bergonzi´s last words in his book Jazz Lines (which treats this subject):

    l don't know of any player who uses bebop scales exclusively, but most improvisers of varying jazz forms use them at times. This book presents a detailed way to explore chromaticism in scale. Great music has great detail! The use of bebop scales is one of many details or devices to develop and integrate into one's playing.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I'm not belittling the idea, though, you see that, right? What I'm honestly saying is "How can the concept not be obvious?" Because in my opinion, it's literally what jazz sounds like. Chord tones on strong beats, enclosures, passing chromatics, triplets, syncopation. It's like you can write it on a napkin and hand it to someone and say, "There it is, see you in 10,000 hours.".
    As with many things in this game lol.

    BTW - there were many things in your post that gave me a wry chuckle. It's easy to come across as a bit humourless...

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
    Bergonzi´s last words in his book Jazz Lines (which treats this subject)

    l don't know of any player who uses bebop scales exclusively, but most improvisers of varying jazz
    forms use them at times. This book presents a detailed way to explore chromaticism in scale. Great
    music has great detail! The use of bebop scales is one of many details or devices to develop and integrate into one's playing.
    Obviously Bergonzi didn't hear me about 3 years ago lol :-)

    Bebop scales - I hate that term.

    It's just one solution to a very simple problem.... Four beats in a bar, seven notes in a scale. Composers and improvisers have had to deal with that for centuries.

  24. #123

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    There is no single answer. But a good working set can be cobbled together from a lot of different tools and devices... It is up to each of us to find the tools and devices that help us express what we are looking for...

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sorry to keep blathering on... I'm really not in disagreement with your basic point Jeff... I thin it's possible to be a very high level bop player simply by listening to and learning solos and understanding them in your own way.

    First - I think the power of the BH approach is in the way it allows you to understand and take apart as well as design and build idiomatic bebop language. It represents a complete set of tools that I haven't personally seen anywhere else... But there's a lot of systems of jazz education I don't know anything about. I just latched on to Barry because it was there and it worked.

    Second - Barry is not the only person to ever talk about putting chord tones on the beat.... I mean there were fellas like Mozart obviously, but in jazz pedagogy the obvious example are David Baker and his bebop scales.

    Third - I think there is a tendency for internet generation young musicians to get very excited about 'concepts' (and Vulfpeck) - actually Barry's approach is kind of popular with younger musicians now. 10 years ago no-one gave a ****. Look at the excitement around the more or less completely useless Negative Harmony. There are these little music theory memes almost. I too feel cynical about them

    Fourthly - I don't want to be evangelical about Barry's approach. BUT - I do think that an understanding of lines beyond simply - 'this is a II-V-I lick with a #9 and a b9' - can give greater freedom in the long run, especially if you can hook that up with the ears. You might be clever enough to create a framework for understanding this...

    My own story is more complex. I started learning bop by learning solos and lines and taking them to pieces and transposing them etc. Bleeding chunks, jammed over chords without context.

    That worked well. But I'd been going to Barry's classes on and off for years and didn't really 'get' them. It was only when I put it together with the recordings that it made any sense at all, and actually I found his system to be better and easier to use than my own specific understandings, which slotted quite nicely into the BH stuff.

    In the short term I think this might have made be a slightly rigid player (too much strict scale/downbeat stuff can make you sound a bit square) but I think it's starting to open up a lot more. You have to practice these things in a way that is flexible, not 'baked in.' I believe that watching how Barry roasts his class on this material is as important as the material itself. Everything is at tempo.

    The fact that I can sit down with a line like and understand what's going on in a simple and clear way from the point of view of how the lines are constructed beyond a mere harmonic analysis is immensely helpful. (It might not seem simple from the unfamiliar terminology - which is a point of contention for me.)

    Anyway, (and I'm running long here) - being able to sequence added notes into scales to create rhythmically stronger lines is for me, is a fusion of both guitaristic and musical considerations. I have to practice this stuff on my instrument, just like triads and intervals through the scales, and so on.
    No worries, blathering or not, I always find your take on these things interesting.

    I guess I come at it my way because I figure I'm nobody special, and if I came to some understanding of this music (emphasis on SOME) then ANYBODY can do it...

    I heard about the chord tones on strong beats thing at least 10-12 years ago...long before Barry was jazz education de rigeur I thought, "hey, that's interesting, let's see what that sounds like." And then I was like..."well, that sounds familiar..." Then I transcribed a line or two of my own playing, and realized, "Oh, that's what I'm doing. That's just what sounds good, what sounds like jazz." So I guess I just figured anybody who listened to jazz as much as I did and had swing/bop lines playing in their head all day long would come to the same realization...I mean, try the opposite...try and play a line where you intentionally put weaker notes on strong beats (as simple as starting a good line on the "wrong" beat)...it sounds..."off." At least it does to me.

    I do think one can formulate their own language learning from records though, it just takes more time, probably. I dunno...I've been playing 25 years, jazz for 15-16, and I'm just starting to feel like I put something together that's decent...if we're all still around in another 15 years, I'll report back with further findings

    I'd like to go further into the BH stuff, if I felt I was good enough to understand all the harmonic stuff...at least with Barry teaching, it's someone who, y'know--actually played bop! That's no small thing, in my opinion.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    BTW - there were many things in your post that gave me a wry chuckle. It's easy to come across as a bit humourless...
    Well, that's good. There was definitely some of it...a lot of it...intended to be.

    If you knew me in person, the concept of me getting riled up about something is pretty funny in and of itself.