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Not only that - can be regarded as a legitimate great of bop. Quite a few times I've heard Barry on old Blue Note records without realising it's him and been knocked out. And of course I love his playing when I know it's him too :-)
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
No worries, blathering or not, I always find your take on these things interesting.
I guess I come at it my way because I figure I'm nobody special, and if I came to some understanding of this music (emphasis on SOME) then ANYBODY can do it...
I heard about the chord tones on strong beats thing at least 10-12 years ago...long before Barry was jazz education de rigeur I thought, "hey, that's interesting, let's see what that sounds like." And then I was like..."well, that sounds familiar..." Then I transcribed a line or two of my own playing, and realized, "Oh, that's what I'm doing. That's just what sounds good, what sounds like jazz." So I guess I just figured anybody who listened to jazz as much as I did and had swing/bop lines playing in their head all day long would come to the same realization...I mean, try the opposite...try and play a line where you intentionally put weaker notes on strong beats (as simple as starting a good line on the "wrong" beat)...it sounds..."off." At least it does to me.
I do think one can formulate their own language learning from records though, it just takes more time, probably. I dunno...I've been playing 25 years, jazz for 15-16, and I'm just starting to feel like I put something together that's decent...if we're all still around in another 15 years, I'll report back with further findings
I'd like to go further into the BH stuff, if I felt I was good enough to understand all the harmonic stuff...at least with Barry teaching, it's someone who, y'know--actually played bop! That's no small thing, in my opinion.
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12-14-2017 12:38 PM
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From a bop perspective, of course the chord tones are commonly going to fall on the downbeats. This is rarely conscious in great players because they've listened to enough music that it's internalized. Naturally, what sounds good is what's gonna come out on the instrument if you have a good command of it. Earlier in the thread I think someone mentioned that if you have to think about it, you aren't listening enough, and that's absolutely right. Once you know your scales and the changes, everything else should come from your ear.
To put it bluntly, it's BS in most modern settings. Quartal (and quintal, if you consider them separate) harmony and soloing is what's hip nowadays, and even without considering those, it's completely wrong to think that it's a static rule to always play chord tones on downbeats. While it sounds good and works well, it gets boring to only hear that, and as OP said, plenty of the greats, even from the bebop era, broke the "rule" regularly.
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e.g. Referencing the blues. Originally Posted by maxtons
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Interestingly enough, I think pentatonic wanking on the blues is where I first started to hear the value of chord tones...as a teen. I'd hear guys play, and they'd weight all 5 of those notes equally over all three chords...but that's not what good blues players do...
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Ha! Yes! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
When I played blues back then, I used the regular blues scale, but I was always conscious of wanting to resolve on the changes. It just didn't sound right to me if I didn't.
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Good grief, it's hard when people say this sort of stuff not to read into it a defensive stance or trying to pull down other people's approach. I'm aware that I often phrase my opinions with a similar tone. Originally Posted by maxtons
I think the best thing is to hold up the example of Pasquale Grasso and the other musicians who have flourished under Barry Harris's tutelage as an example. So you certainly can't say that some great musicians haven't practiced this stuff consciously, and in Barry's case his students include some of the finest bop stylists in the world. They practiced this type of material very thoroughly.
Well what is this is if not working on your scales and changes?Earlier in the thread I think someone mentioned that if you have to think about it, you aren't listening enough, and that's absolutely right. Once you know your scales and the changes, everything else should come from your ear.
Fundamentally I don't disagree. Yes it should all come from the ears and flow intuitively in the moment, when you play. I don't see why practicing scales this way and using your ear is at odds at all. But you have to practice it one way or another, for it to become intuitive.
That's what the woodshed is. The bandstand is something different.
I think that's actually quite an inaccurate thing to say, certainly from my studies. It's not that simple.To put it bluntly, it's BS in most modern settings. Quartal (and quintal, if you consider them separate) harmony and soloing is what's hip nowadays, and even without considering those, it's completely wrong to think that it's a static rule to always play chord tones on downbeats. While it sounds good and works well, it gets boring to only hear that, and as OP said, plenty of the greats, even from the bebop era, broke the "rule" regularly.
Firstly - I sometimes half jokingly say that modern jazz is just as much about pastiching a style (up till a few years ago Kurt's) as trad jazz... But in fact modern jazz players are reasonably diverse in their approaches.
Secondly - Quartal harmony has been around in jazz for over 50 years, BTW (and I'm sure a suitably motivated jazz nerd could find earlier examples than that.) To put that in perspective, it's like being in the 1970's and talking about the era of the Hot Fives and Sevens being contemporary.... Jazz development has slowed down a lot, but harmonic ideas have moved on a bit since the 1960s. TBH I find pure quartal ideas pretty basic sounding - cliched even - and like to mix them up with other intervals.
So non-tertial intervallic ideas through scales I think of more as another item of jazz furniture. It's certainly stuff I practice each and every day, because intervallic scale stuff sounds COOL when done well.
Players are different, but guys like Adam Rogers and Mike Moreno do often reference bop language in their playing, for instance (not all players tho - some don't really do the bop thing. Kurt for instance.)
For myself as a player, I am interested in creating lines that have their own swing and momentum in them, and I feel that a very modal/CST approach (if applied in a certain way) separate the rhythmic element and harmonic element from each other. Gaining control of harmony expressed rhythmically in scalic lines is not limited to outlining simple C7 or C6 sounds, for instance, you can use it to outline anything you want.Last edited by christianm77; 12-14-2017 at 06:39 PM.
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An interesting alternative POV on the whole bebop thing is this - whose licks were Dizzy and Bird playing?
I think a lot of bop language is actually pretty rooted in working on patterns and so on and learning to run them into lines. There are accounts of Parker looking into classical sax pattern books for material to work on.
Can't we hear that in the surviving recordings of those musicians practicing?
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Forgive me, I didn't mean to come off as aggressive or pretentious in my previous post, and my comment about quartal and quintal soloing - as well as some of my other comments - was not phrased clearly.
In my experience, learning the scales has always been enough for me to start making lines over what I hear. Everyone practices differently, and if one has to practice playing chord tones on the downbeat as a way to learn scales, I think that's fine. I personally never found a need to practice playing chord tones in a solo because it just sounded right to me after having heard the same sound in all of the Bird, Diz, BH, Stitt, etc. records that I listened to, and I still firmly believe that if you listen enough it should become embedded to the point where you can apply it quickly.
To clarify my point about quartal and quintal soloing - I understand it has been around for a long time, and I certainly didn't mean to say that every single player only solos that way. However, over the last few decades, players have been experimenting more and more with intervals and upper-extensions in place of chord tones. Chord tones will always have their place, but from a more "contemporary" perspective, you'll see a lot more quartal lines compared to the straightahead bebop era.
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Speed up a Lester Young solo Originally Posted by christianm77
Of course there are innovators...but if you're playing bebop in 2017, are you innovating or curating? And if you're curating, why not carry on the tradition by looking at the masters.
Plus, people who learn licks off records can come up with new stuff too. I can show y'all a trick I do with students on how to create 10 new licks from one...you internalize enough, you can tweak things on the fly--real improvising, not lick regurgitation...
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Well, kinda, but also, not really. Bird was a compendium of Prez licks circa 1944ish, but he developed... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Speed up a Lester Young solo
I want to use bebop as a gateway towards something different. Especially rhythmically.Of course there are innovators...but if you're playing bebop in 2017, are you innovating or curating?
I don't actually think that's exactly what Barry is about. He's not curating, because he is of that generation. His students are often curating, but what Grasso has done IS innovative, at least from the perspective of the guitar. No one played bebop guitar like that in 1955. No-one.And if you're curating, why not carry on the tradition by looking at the masters.
I really don't think it's an either/or. Seems like you are talking about some person who would learn Barry's material but not actually cop any actual bop lines. I don't now who this person might be, but he sounds like a doofus.Plus, people who learn licks off records can come up with new stuff too. I can show y'all a trick I do with students on how to create 10 new licks from one...you internalize enough, you can tweak things on the fly--real improvising, not lick regurgitation...
However I also think this doofus might also be a figment of your imagination.
(Most actual doofuses learn ex1 of the maj6th-dim and leave it there.)
Furthermore, Barry's system was built in order to understand what he was hearing on Bird and Bud Powell sides for himself before he taught it. But it is also true that the musicians of that time were interested in what they could do with patterns etc.
I just think people are a bit defensive about not having practiced their scales ;-). Just practice yer scales with the downbeats, stop worrying about it lol.
Anyway, I'd add as a side note, I don't hear a huge amount of the added note scale stuff in guitarists like Jimmy Raney, Wes etc - it seems more of a horn thing... So it's fine that you haven't done it haha.
(BTW I don't personally really learn licks personally ATM - I transcribe in order to develop my ear and flexibility as a player, rather than to add canned material to my playing. Also to model the process of improvisation and get the creative juices going... I listen, sing, play, and move on... But I have gone through phases of learning licks. Nowt wrong with a good lick. And sometimes I hear something that just sticks... )
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I think the doofus is a figment of your imagination, as you've invented him. All I said is people who learn from records can make up new stuff too. I never suggested BH students aren't copping actual lines.
As before, I'm really not talking about Barry Harris. I'm only talking about one specific thing, which has been around as long as jazz school.
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Thing is - EVERYONE should be learning from records, at least in so much as it gets them to the point where they can start to do their own stuff. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think people learning stuff off records will develop their own theory/description of what's going on, a concept . I know I did.
Whether you want to carry on with that or adopt someone else's description is up to you. I went for the latter in regards to bop.
Well, I only bring Barry into it as he's a good example of a reputable jazz educator who teaches this stuff in a super strict, clear fashion.As before, I'm really not talking about Barry Harris. I'm only talking about one specific thing, which has been around as long as jazz school.
I'm not sure what our area of difference is in that case? Other than the fact that you are too lazy to practice your scales correctly? (JOKE!! JOKE!!)
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I don't think we are disagreeing...so...
Screw scales, arpeggios! Carole King told me...or was that Danny Kaye...
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I'm sure I can come across like that. Internet does that. Originally Posted by maxtons
It's not either/or. If you love that music, why not practice raw materials such as scales in a way that complement the way lines are constructed in that idiom?In my experience, learning the scales has always been enough for me to start making lines over what I hear. Everyone practices differently, and if one has to practice playing chord tones on the downbeat as a way to learn scales, I think that's fine. I personally never found a need to practice playing chord tones in a solo because it just sounded right to me after having heard the same sound in all of the Bird, Diz, BH, Stitt, etc. records that I listened to, and I still firmly believe that if you listen enough it should become embedded to the point where you can apply it quickly.
I think generally intervallic is a more accurate way to put it. There's different ways into this. 4ths and 5ths are in the mix, but Lage Lund uses a lot of triads for instance, in a very interesting and personal way.To clarify my point about quartal and quintal soloing - I understand it has been around for a long time, and I certainly didn't mean to say that every single player only solos that way. However, over the last few decades, players have been experimenting more and more with intervals and upper-extensions in place of chord tones. Chord tones will always have their place, but from a more "contemporary" perspective, you'll see a lot more quartal lines compared to the straightahead bebop era.
Contemporary jazz, and what makes it sound 'modern' is a massive can of worms and not really relevant to the topic in hand, which is bebop technique. Just to say many modern cats have a solid grounding in bop.
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Yeah, she's a guitar player though! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The scales v arps thing - specifically for bebop - is a debate that could go on for ever. But one of the big surprises to me is that there was such a thing as using scales to play bop.... But, Berklee didn't invent scales, after all, they just invented practicing them wrong so they don't swing, and ugly harmony (JOKE! please not to go down that rabbit hole....)
About 5 years ago, I used to be an arps, passing tones and subs guy to death, but I found that approach to have some drawbacks. But it was a really good thing to have gone through.
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Lol...transcribe one Parker solo...shit, let the Internet do it for you....scales all over.
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Quite. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Been doing that a lot this year and I would have to agree. There are fragments of arps of course but mostly as you stated. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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But more importantly, I have another observation that trumps all this musical stuff.
Christian......when I look at your avatar I see a horse! If I blink and look again I can see that it's meant to be a person playing.
But I see the profile of a horse head. It's got a bit in its mouth and a strap of leather around the neck.
Just thought I'd point that out.
Carry on.
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If you zoom in on it, it looks a bit like an angry Homer Simpson playing the guitar. Originally Posted by Philco
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Straight from the horses mouth then Originally Posted by Philco
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Another excellent and perceptive observation. I am the Homer J Simpson of jazz guitar and proud. Originally Posted by grahambop
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I would listen to Sean Levitt while he practised in the room next door.
All he ever did, on a daily basis and over the course of months, was play the same single long line - repeatedly, and for what seemed like hours at a time.
As with the horse or Homer Simpson in Christian's avatar (
), all manner of conclusions and interpretations could be shoehorned into analysis of that line.
But what I heard Sean practise was not what he actually played three nights per week on stage; it was preparation.
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I think I might be the Mr. Burns of jazz guitar. Certainly turning into a grumpy old git as I get older, so my work colleagues keep telling me. Originally Posted by christianm77
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It took me months of looking at it to discover that it wasn't a horse... Originally Posted by Philco
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