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I was thinking about ways to approach this mentally and this is what I came up with so far. I'm doing this for myself, I wanna learn more about it as I get more interested in avant-garde, different ways of composing, free jazz and such.
Forgive me for not being 100% theoretically correct at all times
This is the way I understand/hear things. Feel free to add anything...
1. Adding a chord tone that's not in the suggested mode
For example:
IMaj7 (ionian) becomes IMaj7#11 (lydian)
IIm7 (dorian) becomes IIm7(b13) (aeolian)
Dim7 becomes DimMaj7
1 b3 b5 bb7 1 b3 b5 7
2. Treating altered chords as either diminished chords or augmented chords
G7b9 can be replaced with Bb7b9, Db7b9, E7b9
G7#5 can be replaced with B7#5 or Eb7#5
Try different voicings, doesn't have to be as straightforward as using the 7b9 for dim or 7#5 for aug. See which altered chords you like when doing this
I also hear some altered sounds this way:
lets say we have these chords DminMaj7 -> A7alt -> DminMaj7
for me it helps to think of the A7alt as moving the DminMaj7 down two whole steps (like an augmented chord)
Moving a chord up three semitones like a diminished chord also builds tension: Em7b5 -> Gm7b5 (works like an altered dominant) -> Dm7
3. Using triads as a starting point for sidestepping
On the first four bars of a Bb blues you could start with a Bb triad and then move it up or down. I tried something like this with the triads: Bb -> B -> Db -> B -> A -> Bb
4. Using the whole tone scale freely. Can be thought of as an augmented chord of some kind. Or a part of the altered scale.
5. Using the diminished scale freely.
6. Approaching the chords with a sidestepping mentality, you could move them up or down as you wish, I find that the whole tone and the diminished scale work pretty well for this. You could keep the voicing the same and move it around while comping or soloing.
7. Thinking about jazz as tension and release, avoiding the chord tones of the tonic while playing the dominant chord
A7alt -> Dm7
tension and release
D# F# Ab Bb C# -> D F A C (E G B)
b9 3 #11 #5 7 -> 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13
This is like sidestepping but for me it usually gets me to a different place than just playing say a D#m pentatonic
8. Non-functional harmony reharmonisation
this is something more experimental for me when it comes to soloing, but you could spontaneously reharmonise a note in your solo like this: let's say you're playing a D note and want a maj7 feel in it even though the underlying harmony says D7 – you could play an Ebmaj7 arpeggio
I don't know how this works in a soloing context since I've played it mostly solo but it sure could get you some new sounds
9. Motifs
using repetition in your phrasing to make weird sounds more easily accessible to the listeners ears
10. The idea that your instrument is a sound generator
you could mimic something you heard or try to create an atmosphere with the sounds
11. Repeat a "wrong note" you played and make it sound like you're going outside
12. Crazy use of chromaticism
13. Playing something that looks interesting on the fretboardLast edited by mokapot; 04-27-2017 at 07:06 AM.
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04-27-2017 06:34 AM
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Using an umbrella when it's rainy.
Or playing rhythmically driven phrases. If the rhythmic inertia of the phrase is strong enough, and there's a resolution, it works. In my world anyway.
David
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Looks like a solid list. I think the irony of the "how to play out" question is that there's simultaneously no answer and countless answers.
It's like asking the question, "How do I paint a red rose with a color other than red."
Well as long as we all agree it's supposed to be red, painting it any other color is simply incorrect. Once the understanding that it doesn't have to be red comes... then literally any other color works.
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It's all about developing the ear and feel for it. Need to be listening to lots of who you consider outside players you want to emulate, listen, transcribe, and study. Let your analysis of the transcription be it a line or solo be the theory you work from. A big part of playing outside is rhythm where notes are placed. You can take an inside line and shift it over an eighth note and now it sounds out.
Learning to play out is same as learning to play inside, lots and lots of listening to others and yourself. Studying lines you like to discover what they are doing that you like. Internalizing the rhythmic feel for notes floating in and out. Tons of woodshedding and recording yourself.
Last the very short lesson from Chick Corea.... It isn't about what you play outside, it's all about how you come back inside that matters. That's the big lesson touching base so people know you're in control. I'm even heard Free Jazz players talk about how often they check back in to establish where they are at.
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if you are looking for some inspiration on the matter, these books have been great for me:
The Guitarist's Guide to Composing and Improvising Book/CD: Damian Jon: 9780634016356: Amazon.com: Books
A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody: David Liebman: 9783892210306: Amazon.com: Books
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Simplest explanation I've heard came from the late Emily Remler. Melodic minor a half step above the dominant in a II V I, and melodic minor a fifth above in static dominant and cycling progression. So Ab melodic minor for G7 (II V I) and D melodic minor for G7 in most other situations. However, not everyone plays like this, but it does provide a useful starting point though. I prefer to use AbMaj (chord tones) instead of a Ab melodic minor scale. For the D Melodic minor, I prefer to see it as notes that fit the key or chord, but make sure c# features and resolves tastefully. Of course there's passing notes, blues notes, wholetones and chromaticisms that add tension. But much easier to think about what the tension notes are and add them into your vocab (tastefully).
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To me it is two things, confidence and direction, which really blend into one thing when done right.
Confidence is knowing the way back inside.
Direction as in the release gradient of the "outside going back inside" direction.
Very simple example is Miles would play a "wrong note" and just hold it into the next chord change within which it was the best of all possible right notes... confident about what was about to happen, having chosen the direction that returns to inside.
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It depends how 'out'. But there's tasteful out and un-tasteful out...
I do a lot of experimental stuff so out is common practice for me. Technically, any non-diatonic note is out but it depends where it's put and how long it lasts etc. And then how many there are of them.
I mean, really you can play anything you want if you like the sound of it, from the usual subs, to the altered scale, to slip-sliding, and it should be enough. You don't want to go too mad.
In any case, after a while 'out' becomes normal, the ear adjusts very quickly. If you want an experiment, over Dm7 - G7 - CM7, play D melodic minor over the Dm7 then repeat it again it over the G7. Resolve it into C properly, of course.
Then same again (D mel over Dm7) but this time move to Eb mel over the G7, then E mel, F mel, F# mel, and so on up till you get back to D mel again. You'd be amazed how normal it all sounds after a while!
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And just to put my money where my mouth is, here it is. Can you hear anything that really sounds 'wrong' as such? Just some fun :-)
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Nice.
Originally Posted by ragman1
Well, you resolved every time so imho there's no way there could be anything "wrong"
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I think that's the point really. There's not much you can't do although some things definitely sound completely wrong. I'll try to think of some examples.
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1. Reharmonize the tune and then play on the reharm changes against the original changes.
2. Remember that if it's going to sound good outside one harmony, it ought to sound good inside against a different harmony. That is, every good outside line will sound good inside against a different harmony. That's because a good melodic and rhythmic line is necessary.
3. A good outside line may only have one or two notes that are actually outside the scale. It isn't necessary to play entirely outside the current scale/
4. Make sure the chordal instrument stays inside while the solo goes outside. If you both go outside at the same time, it's more likely to sound chaotic. Also, if you're outlining a Gb7 against a C7, you certainly don't want the chord behind you to be that same Gb7. If you both play a Gb7, the resulting sound is inside apart from the tritone sub sound.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Maybe not worth much, I can't play outside (at least the way I define it) hardly at all.
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Thank you. Due to an overwhelming demand for outside playing I've decided to submit a seasonal example.
You should realise this is genius level stuff and no attempt should be made to analyse it. You won't understand it anyway. Only musically gifted elephants and children under one and a half can. I expect it's a womb thing.
Research indicates it may be beneficial in the treatment of indigestion.
P.S. I recorded it inside.
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I kept listening just because I needed to hear it resolve lol when it did, it felt like a hug. Originally Posted by ragman1
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And an immense relief, I'm sure :-)
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All I know is it's easier with easier progressions. My ear was trained to be quite diatonic which makes this difficult. I've worked on using the altered scale on the domV chord during II V I changes mentioned in post 6. I also got the idea from Emily Remler's video. Anyway, I had to give it a rest because it was driving me a little crazzy!
I do best when I have the melody of the song going thru my head during improvisation. I can get a little outside and hear how to come back and resolve that way.
Also working on enclosures gets into chromaticism without getting too far outside.
Listen to guitar players like Wes and cop the outside licks they're doing that you like. My 2¢
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Outside thoughts...
1. Get good at playing "Inside" before you even worry about what outside playing is.
2. Define what's outside and inside to your ears. It's going to be different for everybody. Some of the cool kids will tell you they don't hear anything as outside. Nice. I'm sure when they paint they only use beige, too.
3. Listen voraciously and transcribe as much as you can of the lines that make your ears stand on end. That's what's "outside" for you.
4. Playing outside is about a lot of things, but the most important are getting "out" with confidence and getting back in smoothly.
5. Start with "tried and true" examples (many outlined here already) and see what your ear thinks. For example, try the old play a line over the ii, play it up a m3 over the V. If that sounds "outside," explore it. If it sounds in, hey, maybe you're ready for heavier stuff.
6. Half steps are your friend. If you want to create tension, the tension and resolution of just playing a half step above or below of where you "should" play can be very satisfying.
7. The guitar is a visual instrument. Don't overlook creating visual patterns for "out" sounds. Again, it's about confidence and getting back in.
Back with more ideas later, maybe.
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That's what I tell myself every time I leave the house :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But, seriously, good post
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Isn't it about resolution?
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Apparently so. In fact, that's the essential point. But, of course, not just anything will do. It should always enhance the performance, not detract from it. Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
(edit)
I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet but, of course, the blues is a prime example of outside playing. The minor over major sound is exactly that.Last edited by ragman1; 05-02-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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It really started to work for me like that very recently. Seems to be mostly in "the ears": "out starts in the middle of the track Originally Posted by ragman1
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