Stuck on Guitar Arpeggios

[richb2]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

[pkirk]

think of chord substitutions and use the arpeggio of the sub, e.g. relative minor, or tritone.

[vintagelove]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

Honestly it sounds like your on the right track. Perhaps knowing the fretboard a bit better will help, which bring me to point 2. Stick to it for a few more years, it takes time.

Also, try incorporating half diminished and diminished arps off the 3rd of dominant chords.

Have fun!!!

[richb2]

Thanks guys. I should say that I use subs pretty often. I often use the maj7 arp over a m7 or the m7b5 over a m7. I haven;t use the tri tone too much and maybe that is an area. I am going to try and the half dim and the dim arps off the 3rd of the dominant. My point is that when I played blues which was totally by ear, I didn;t get comments like "you sound like you are practicing arps". One idea I had was to outline the chords by play the 3rd and 7th which is a good part of a shell voicing to try to break up the soloing a little bit.

[destinytot]

I often use the maj7 arp over a m7 or the m7b5 over a m7. I haven;t use the tri tone too much and maybe that is an area. I am going to try and the half dim and the dim arps off the 3rd of the dominant. My point is that when I played blues which was totally by ear, I didn;t get comments like "you sound like you are practicing arps".

Go for it, Rich - lovely lyrical/'singable' lines!

[grahambop]

I don't know if this helps, but one of the first jazz exercises I learned was out of an old Ivor Mairants book someone gave me (which now sells for about £150 on amazon, incredibly!). It was basically an arp upwards on each note of the C scale, then part of a scale coming down, to get to the next note. So ascending C maj arp from root to 7th, then C scale down from 6th to 3rd, then start the next arp (Dm) from the D, and so on, for each diatonic note. And all the way back down again when you get to the C octave.

I found this more useful than just playing arps alone, as it seemed to mirror more closely what jazz musicians actually played (albeit in very simplistic form). In other words, if you look at Parker solos I think you will often see patterns like this, i.e. arp up, partial scale down.

So maybe this approach can create better lines for you.

If you have trouble getting the downward scale line to land nicely on a chord tone on the next chord, just shove some chromatic passing notes into it until it fits. Again Parker solos give examples of this.

[bako]

Perhaps practicing arpeggios something similar to the attached pdf
will help cure the need to orient around the root.

[pingu]

I don't know if this helps, but one of the first jazz exercises I learned was out of an old Ivor Mairants book someone gave me (which now sells for about £150 on amazon, incredibly!). It was basically an arp upwards on each note of the C scale, then part of a scale coming down, to get to the next note. So ascending C maj arp from root to 7th, then C scale down from 6th to 3rd, then start the next arp (Dm) from the D, and so on, for each diatonic note. And all the way back down again when you get to the C octave.

I found this more useful than just playing arps alone, as it seemed to mirror more closely what jazz musicians actually played (albeit in very simplistic form). In other words, if you look at Parker solos I think you will often see patterns like this, i.e. arp up, partial scale down.

So maybe this approach can create better lines for you.

If you have trouble getting the downward scale line to land nicely on a chord tone on the next chord, just shove some chromatic passing notes into it until it fits. Again Parker solos give examples of this.

absolutely spot on advice IMO Graham
Dave Cliff got me to do this and it unlocked
a big door for me

[grahambop]

absolutely spot on advice IMO Graham
Dave Cliff got me to do this and it unlocked
a big door for me

Haha, wonder if he got it out of the Ivor Mairants book too!

Great player by the way, remember seeing him do superb Wes-style chord solos on a Strat at Ronnie Scotts (I think he was backing Georgie Fame).

[richb2]

I don't know if this helps, but one of the first jazz exercises I learned was out of an old Ivor Mairants book someone gave me (which now sells for about £150 on amazon, incredibly!). It was basically an arp upwards on each note of the C scale, then part of a scale coming down, to get to the next note. So ascending C maj arp from root to 7th, then C scale down from 6th to 3rd, then start the next arp (Dm) from the D, and so on, for each diatonic note. And all the way back down again when you get to the C octave.

I found this more useful than just playing arps alone, as it seemed to mirror more closely what jazz musicians actually played (albeit in very simplistic form). In other words, if you look at Parker solos I think you will often see patterns like this, i.e. arp up, partial scale down.

So maybe this approach can create better lines for you.

If you have trouble getting the downward scale line to land nicely on a chord tone on the next chord, just shove some chromatic passing notes into it until it fits. Again Parker solos give examples of this.

Let me see if I understand this. So I play from a C (on the 5th string) up to a B on the 3rd string. then down to the D on the 5th. The from the D on the 5th to the A on the 3rd, etc?

[grahambop]

Let me see if I understand this. So I play from a C (on the 5th string) up to a B on the 3rd string. then down to the D on the 5th. The from the D on the 5th to the A on the 3rd, etc?

You could, you've got the basic idea there, but the exercise I played started from C on the 6th string, which possibly lays across the fingerboard a bit more easily (I mean you can do it more or less in position).

[Reg]

Yea... eventually the arps just become a method of embellishing the line your hearing or playing... not the line.

I tend to play pretty long phrases and use all kinds of different elements embellishing them. And then I use harmonic concepts to help create motion and development.

I tend to be very groove or feel organizationally and again usually have very simple melodic ideas and embellish them. I think you also get over the arp thing after awhile... somewhat like chord tones or 3rds and 7th, eventually you hear what harmony each note or pattern of notes your playing implies and don't need to spell etc... I like to create different level relationships and develop them over changes... somewhat like mentioned above... take basic diatonic subs, Dbmaj for Bb- and make the Dbmaj the target for creating improve. Of course all with reference to Bb-. So you end up down the line have multiple layers of organizations going on.... long story short... you get away from roots and still have the tonal reference... if you choose.

simple example... II V , Bbmin to Eb7.... you can have a tonal reference of...Bb-, Eb7 or the implied Ab...so you create line... arps or whatever you choose, and say your creating a blusey line implying Ab, over the Bb- Eb7 II V... and the next changes are G-7 C7 to Fmaj. So you end up playing ... Ab13 blue line resolving to G- which becomes motion to Fmaj.

Arps become passing chord to target chord ... arps become passing line to target melodic note... it's all the same to me. notes or chords, their both always going on in my head....

[Reg]

here's an example... last month was in studio... and had some of the musicians record a few of my tunes at end, there was a little time left. Just a one take thing and probable won't ever do anything with tunes etc... but you can hear just what I was trying to explain...

[JensL]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

Go compose some lines that sound good and are not in triplets, not only arps and not starting on the root. If you take a Dm7 arp and try to come up with some lines where you add a note between to arp notes or play it in some sort of sequence?

Also it sounds like your arps are not embedded in your scales? did you ever practice your scales in diatonic arps? (I am guessing, so sorry if I am wrong..)

Jens

[pamosmusic]

Try putting approaches and enclosures in various places. Learn a couple bop heads and steal the arpeggio lines. Apply the ideas you find to different chord types, inversions etc. Then start altering the entire line.

[Jazzpunk]

here's an example... last month was in studio... and had some of the musicians record a few of my tunes at end, there was a little time left. Just a one take thing and probable won't ever do anything with tunes etc... but you can hear just what I was trying to explain...

Enjoyed that Reg, thanks for sharing.

[Jazzpunk]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

What suggestions has Sheryl made? She always gave spot on advice when I was on the dojo.

[GuyBoden]

It's difficult not to play arps.

[fep]

I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root.

There's a book and we had and a study group on that subject: https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ead-index.html

The book is just a touch of theory and a lot of exercises. Chapter 5 is where you'll see the exercise called the 'connecting game' (look at that thread index to find the discussion and examples of it).

The connecting game: Play only arpeggios over a chord progression, play only constant eighth notes, no rests, no pauses, when the chords change you change to the new arpeggio by going to an adjacent chord tone of the new chord.

For example say you are playing an arp over Dm7 and the last note you play before the chord change to G7 is 'C', then the next note you should play for the G7 chord is a chord tone adjacent (or near by) to 'C', there are two choices 'B' or 'D' are both chord tones of G7 and are both adjacent to the 'C' note.

I like having a very specific exercise like this, it was not easy at first. Over time it got easier and eventually found it's way into and became part of my vocabulary.

Here's a video example of the exercise when I was just started the 'connecting game', my first video of the exercise for that study group. This is over ||: Gm7 / / / | C7 / / / | Fmaj7 / / / | / / / / :||

[matt.guitarteacher]

Try putting approaches and enclosures in various places. Learn a couple bop heads and steal the arpeggio lines. Apply the ideas you find to different chord types, inversions etc. Then start altering the entire line.

Agree with this. I think enclosures/approaches are kind of Arp 2.0. Really seems to answer a lot of the "what next" which is always asked once you know some arps. I've been kind of "stuck" with arps for a long time as well, and working on this stuff recently has really opened up my ears to some chromaticism and helped get out of some of that rut. Did some work from "Jazz Improv: How to Play It and Teach It" by Jimmy Amadie, and it begins with this kind of targetting/enclusure/approach work before learning any scales.

Beyond the initial patterns, it gets you hearing how to start creating some of your own lines and how you can resolve just about anything anywhere; even learn to make things sound retroactively "on purpose" by resolving them the right way. More importantly, it gives you a reference point for "why" chromatic type licks work as you're transcribing/listening, so that you're doing more than just copying someone else's line and kind of wondering why it works.

[EDIT: Ha! I see fep beat me to it. Anyway...] Also, the connecting game, as found in Joe Elliott's An Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing, always gets mentioned, and for good reason. It gets you out of the rut of always starting from the roots. I don't use the fingerings Elliot uses because, as JensL alluded to, I feel they are somewhat disconnected from the scale fingerings, but the concept is really useful and something which I need to put more time with. I use Leavitt-style scale/arp fingerings when working through his stuff because it feels more consistent to me.

Last, I'd say Bert Ligon's materials re. his outlines is very similar to the arpeggio+scale run ideas mentioned above but works on elaborating and embellishing these ideas to make your own lines; how to take a Parker line and break it down, change it, make it your own etc... how scale runs resolve into the next chord/arpeggio pattern... good stuff...

[richb2]

here's an example... last month was in studio... and had some of the musicians record a few of my tunes at end, there was a little time left. Just a one take thing and probable won't ever do anything with tunes etc... but you can hear just what I was trying to explain...

Nice Reg. Sounds like Bossa Nova to me. Is it? Everything sounds like bossa nova to me.....

[jaime136]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

Richb2,

Don't want to derail, but what's your take on the Lee Wise Truefire workshop? It's seems like an interesting approach, do you feel it's worth the money/time investment?

[richb2]

Yes, a super important way to get your arps down all over the neck. I had tried for a long time to master that info but Les' class really did it for me. Unfortunately fluidity with arps doesn't make you a good player. And that is what this thread is about.

[destinytot]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

In my opinion, one needn't disguise outlining chords in arpeggios when colour or contrast are added.

I think of the arpeggio as a helpful device, a reference for me and also a kind of signpost for the listener; it points somewhere, leading the listener by directing their attention.

Some kind of 'promise' is inherent, and there needs to be some kind of 'reward' - something nuanced and unpredictable - to keep the listener engaged.

But I'm pretty sure one needs to get highly-specific about matters of style in order to make progress.

I think bebop scales contain a solution - but I don't think bebop scales are the solution. I suspect that focusing on rhythm will help you break out of that funk.

Personally, I recommend jamming to Roots reggae - and scrutinising Jobim's melodies. My two cents.

[christianm77]

I have been working on Arpeggios for the past few years. I have been studying through TrueFire with Sheryl Bailey and also took a mini course with Les Wise on arps. I find that when I solo these days I outline the chords in arps pretty well. But I really can't disguise that. I usually start at the root and go up or start at the root and go down. I have been told not to start at the root. So now I have been trying to start at the 3rd and go up. On the way down I have more issues. I also have a few scales in my rep such as the bebop scale. Again I always start on the root. I also play almost always in triplets. Can anyone recommend a way to break out of this funk? One thing I have been trying is to stick to the minor pent more. I used to be a pretty good blues player and one idea I got is to play blues with an occasional arp thrown in. Any other ideas?

Y'know the triplets thing is familiar to me. I play more triplets than I think sound good, especially at medium tempo. Listening carefully to my favourite players the triplet is used as an embellishment, but rarely for bars on end.

One thing I have found that helps is to get really into tapping my foot in 3 against a backing track in 4 and playing like that for a few bars before going back to normal - that is a tap out the quarter or half triplet and feel it as a new time signature over a backing track say.

What this does is, counter intuitively, help me feel the double time a lot clearer and it straightens out my eights, makes them less rinky dink a bit hipper. At fast tempos (~300) it makes eights feel a lot more relaxed and *easier*, so what's not to like?

So by getting into the triplet you feel the duple subdivisions. Perhaps the fact that you need to play it all the time means that you can't feel it at the same time as the other rhythms and feel you have to express it. Strange. Anyway, this is all part of the exercises outlined on Mike Longo's second Rhythmic Nature of Jazz DVD. I recommend this, I feel I got a lot out of it.

Practice scales flexibly - start on chord tones and non chord tones (in this case you can drop the added note in the bebop scales) - try to do this mindfully, so you think, for example: "OK, bebop scales on Bb blues, descending, all from the 7th." "Bebop scales on F blues ascending and descending with no leaps starting on A." This can be easier said than done.

Barry Harris does this kind of thing very rapid fire in classes. It's a complete roast.

Expect there to be a lag between your playing in the practice room and on the bandstand. This is perfectly normal. It can take a few months of practice for something to become ingrained (although I suspect that certain states of mind during practice might cut this lag down a bit.)