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Hey ... just getting back to forum... so i tried to make quick example in slow motion of one possible approach I might use Dominant approach chords in a I VI II V...
Originally Posted by fumblefingers
I can write out the lines... or i could write out some lines, they would be what ever I come up with in the moment, but basically I use the Dom approach chords to help create relationships with the target and also with the overall tonal reference, in the examples... In Bb, I used the approach to help create a blues harmonic/melodic feel. Every approach Dominant chords cand also become the V7 of Target. Example the Ab13 approaching G-7 could also be D7#9, right and almost any dominant approach, can have a blues notes reference, especially I VI II V's in Jazz. anyway check it out etc...
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06-29-2015 01:09 AM
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Hey Rich2... basically every chord in a tune can become a target... And any Target Chord can be approached by a chord, or a series of chords... called a Chord Pattern. Chord Patterns help reinforce the tonal implications of the Target and also create motion. They can be organized by the actual changes... usually chord patterns are from tunes, common chord progressions from any standard or tune that is recognizable, or from any type of harmonic organizations... as mentioned above, II V's or extended Dominants or even just root note patterns.
The other approach is to use common lead lines or melodies that help the changes, again imply the target... and of course, using both works generally the best.
The better and more comfortable you become with chord patterns and lead lines... the more liberty you have with the usage.
If you check out almost any of my comping vids... I use chord patterns with lead line... non stop. Sometimes i dont even play the target chord...
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A simple example of this might be the way a double bass player might construct a walking bass line. If the progression is (as in Reg's example) Originally Posted by Reg
Bbmaj7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb
A simple trad/swing bass line could be something like:
Bb G | C F | F (2-feel) or
Bb Bb G G | C C F F | Bb (doubled up/4 feel)
As the rhythm section developed, adventurous bass players like Jimmy Blanton started to experiment with playing more flowing melodic basslines.
One way of decorating the bass notes is join them up with some notes from Bb major:
Bb A G Bb | C Eb F C | Bb
But, bass player could play a chromatic neighbour tone before every chord, like so, to introduce more motion. By this I mean notes that aren't necessarily in the Bb major scale, but are a semitone above or below the note that comes after. This gives us the classic bebop bassline sound. (If you have done any Joe Pass accompaniment style stuff, this logic will be familiar. It's also very guitaristic as the guitar loves chromatics :-)):
Bb Ab G B | C E F B | Bb
This could be understood as a single line version of building a new dominants, because in harmony the lower neighbour tones have a tendency to rise (like the 3rd a V7) and the upper neighbour have a tendency to descend (like the b7 in a V7.)
We also have the tritone substitute. And if we like we can build dom7's on the chromatic neighbour tone as a root too. Lots of possibilities.
On possibility based on the bassline above might be:
Bbmaj7 Ab7 Gm G7 | Cm C7 F B7 | Bmaj7
Each dom7 chord is creating a strong V7-I or bII7-I cadence with the next chord. Ab7-Gm, G7-Cm, C7-F, F7-Bb
But you have loads of options of chords that can move from one thing to the next. These things are often called passing chords.
I use this type of thing when I am comping straight fours to give me a more walking/modern and less 'dun-chuck' sound. Jim Hall was the first guy I heard doing this, but Freddie Green also used a lot of passing chord motion in his comping - as Jim was a big Freddie fan, he was probably the inspiration.
Needless to say you can use this for any kind of comping (with taste, as always.)
I'd like to underline that this is classic functional, tonal harmony. I came across the concept in a classical theory textbook (high school level) and I thought it explained what was going on with jazz bass lines and standards chord progressions pretty well.
What you choose to stack on top of those chords (extensions etc) - that's a bit more jazz...
TBH I haven't worked on the soloing implications as much as I should. Most of my work has been the other way around - taking complex looking progressions and boiling them down to a few simple chords I can express with melodic freedom. But I should really get around to the converse - adding chords in for effect - as the effect can be very beautiful as Reg's video shows. :-)Last edited by christianm77; 06-29-2015 at 08:49 AM.
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Yea... exactly Christian, very common harmonic movement, what jazz brings into the picture is the use of different organization for spelling the extensions .... and then modal interchange which opens the door for a few other methods of organizing what the chords are and how they relate and function in the traditional setting.
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Very cool. Originally Posted by Reg
Can I ask a slightly less on-topic question? How do you finger that 3rd mode of MM, from the 6th string, starting on the b3 (relative to major, that is; Bb in your original key-of-G examples)? I'm assuming 2nd finger on the b3. That kind of changes the relationships relative to the major scale for the other fingers in that position, but it seems less problematic than to only change the Bb.
I've been doing the Phrygian position the way you talk about, starting from the second finger, and it's cool. Just interested in your take on the MM equivalent. Thanks for your input.
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Hey Matt... here's quick fingering pattern for 3rd mode, or starting on 3rd degree of MM, ? Lydian Augmented, Lyd. #5
I generally think of MM as closer to Dorian, so Lydian is diatonic sub of Dorian. so you get the lydian names etc...
1st. 1...2......4
2nd. 1......3...4
3rd. 1.....3
4th. 1.....3...4
5th. 1.....3...s4
6th. ....2......4
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Wow, now the names make sense. I can see how that information would be useful. Originally Posted by Reg
Cheers Reg.
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Awesome. Thanks. Originally Posted by Reg
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Sure Matt... I always dig your posts and comments... thanks
Just for more info... generally all my fingering are set up from arpeggios, or at least with the arpeggio as part of the organization... and of course with chords build on 6th, 5th and 4th strings.
They're designed so when you learn any chord, scale, arpeggio etc... in position, they all are tied together. They're not single elements that you put together...they're organized as one reference.
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Yeah. I'm trying to fill in some last gaps and shore up some melodic minor. It's interesting how melodic minor kind of makes the gaps between a couple of the 5 positions of CAGED or beginning-Leavitt more evident. Also, it's helpful to have a little more fine tuning with the extra positions because of the way melodic minor doesn't line up with diatonic necessarily.
It's funny. The thing that really got me started with committing to this fingering protocol was getting into Joe Elliott's excellent book "Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing. Really just fantastic organization and layout for beginners . Really shows you how to organize thought process/patterns and such for playing over progressions in position, using melodic minor over different chord types, and most of all, really working arpeggios together.
But it's all based on CAGED. In addition, he gives no specific fingerings for the most confounding parts, especially later on with some targeting patterns.
(Way before this, my first forays into trying to play some jazz were all with CAGED scale fingerings and arpeggios. I spent a year or so with Levitt, on-and-off as well, but mostly back to CAGED. )
The thing is, even though most of my experience has been with CAGED, I find that when I start playing a lot of arpeggio cycles in position my fingers still want to "think" more Leavitt style. Can't quite put into words the ear-fingering connection, but it's like the fingers are saying "we'd rather stretch a little and not have to think so hard".
Anyway, for all of the controversy between the two , all of the CAGED arpeggio shapes are in the Leavitt fingering patterns as well.
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It sounds like you might have gotten too fixated on theory. Try forgetting what you have learned when you solo. Instead just hum melodies, either in your head or out loud, and try to play what you are humming by ear.
i also recommend doing some transcribing which trains your ear and also shows you how arpeggios, scales, etc are used by various artists.
but most importantly work on generating ideas and playing them by ear!
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It's funny how this kind of topic generates lots of wordage. I think it's always a good idea to explore new approaches - I almost always get something out of it. If you play the same old stuff, you will get better at the same old stuff.
Everything I have posted here is simply a suggestion - and I suspect the others too. Play around with whatever appeals to you, have fun.Last edited by christianm77; 07-01-2015 at 07:13 AM.
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This is a great answer to the original post for sure. After years of being stuck, examples from real music/and players is a winner... Originally Posted by Rsilver
Just as an aside for communicating well on the forum, for the sake of clarity, you might mention which post you're replying to. I think Christian assumes you're talking about recent comments. Maybe you are.
Anyway, thanks for your input and welcome!Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-01-2015 at 09:34 AM.
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one of the harmonic tricks I learned from ted greene was..you can only go so far "out" before you start to come back "in" .. the harmonic advice from Reg is solid..its based on what works more than theory..at some point you take chances..you have built up lots of "safety nets" you can fall back on - solid cadence chord movements..you reach a point where you don't "panic" if a chord or a run doesn't work..in most cases your the only one who knows-or cares..
knowing lots of harmonic "tricks" - approach chords..subs..back cycling..circle of fifths/fourths..and other devices are what makes jazz the unique music it is..ripping apart all of the tricks into solo lines becomes a revelation and a sense of melodic freedom..as most any melody can be "implied" using many of these techniques..
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True, but Jazz's uniqueness is at least in part (and if you ask me almost entirely) the swing, the time/feel. A key reason why Reg sounds great in those videos is because his time is great. The hip harmony is the icing on the cake. If Reg was playing the minor pentatonic, he would also sound great. Originally Posted by wolflen
It's a boring riff, but it bears repeating just because I feel the stuff on harmony outweighs the wordage on time. Time/feel is the most important thing. That's not to say it's the only thing, but it's something Reg has down cold.
Just my tuppence.... I'm sure you'd agree anyway...Last edited by christianm77; 07-04-2015 at 07:26 PM.
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I'm going to plug the book "Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing" again. The great thing about the book is it is heavy on practical exercises, not heavy on the theory. It gives you just the right amount of theory to get you started. The meat of the book is spending the time on the exercises.
This is something from Chapter 13 where there are exercises in writing your own lines. You can see from the examples I came up with that it is not just running arpeggios. You use the material from the book and your ears at this point to come up with your own lines, to develop new pathways on the fretboard, to build your vocabulary.
The video of my licks
Last edited by fep; 07-04-2015 at 07:54 PM.
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Very nice Frank... sounds beautiful.
Have you tried playing your arp. licks in different positions, etc... I read through them in a few positions... fingering. Cool to see how the articulations change.
The other detail... if you took your arp. lines and somewhat shorten or made a melody out of each one...what would you end up with... anyway that's all I do when I play... I just play more chords... under that shortened melody.
I use the target notes of the lick, and make a melody ... Which still implies the basic changes. Then instead of just filling the melody with more chord tones... or chromatic notes, or typical embellishment... I add more changes and pull from the added changes, the trick is how the new chords are organized with relationship to the starting changes and Melody. And of course the rhythmic placement... the Harmonic Rhythm is like the glue that makes it all Feel right.
For example I might play like Franks last arp lick... E-7, beats 1 + 2 and instead of B-7 on beats 3 + 4, I would probable play a B7alt or F9#11 then on 2nd bar Bb13#11 beats 1 + 2 ... finally A7 beat 3 to A7alt on beat 4 to Dmaj etc...
So for a 4 bar phrase like Franks examples... I would or might play...
/ E-7 B7alt(F9#11) / Bb13#11 A7 A7alt / Dmaj6/9 G13 / F#-9 B7alt /
It's not that I move around that much... but I take the melodic line or lick and then add changes to create more motion and tension resolve... Maybe I do move around a lot... but it becomes lust like playing E-7 A7 Dma. just with more sub-divisions.
Anyway, sorry Frank... You examples were really great, didn't mean to take away from them. Just trying to somewhat show the next step... where it might go or end at.Last edited by Reg; 07-05-2015 at 01:43 PM.
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