Difficult chord changes

[yaclaus]

I'm interested in hearing what chord changes you are struggling with the most and how you deal with issues regarding playing well over difficult changes. Now playing a really good solo over "easy" changes is an art in itself (Wes on "Impressions", wow!), but here I'm thinking how to deal with stuff where you barely know what to play or how to make it. Here is a list of the tunes I find difficult and how I deal with them. Maybe your perspective could shed new light over a few of them. And feel free to share tunes you find difficult to play over.

Here goes:

Countdown: Here I try to make the changes and use Trane and Kreisberg for lines. Oddly, the last line (Em F7 Bbmaj7 A7), is sometimes the most difficult to play something nice over.

Conception: "random" dominant chords all over the place over a "crazy" head. This one is really tough not to sound like a guide tone chaser. Could use some advice here.

Jordu b-section: same type of challenge as "conception", here a cycle of dominant chords. Difficult not to sound like playing arpeggios all over the place

Inner Urge: the last 8 bars. Wow! I can make the changes but making it sound melodic and interesting is hard. Lots of nice versions out there to listen to though.

Monk tunes. Well... all of them

[sgcim]

It's all about what tempo you play them at.
When we were kids, we played Jordu at a slow enough tempo where the bridge didn't hassle me, but recently we played it up there, and all I could come up with were two bar sequences (NOT one bar sequences!!!!!!!).

We play a lot of Bill Evans later things, which can get pretty hairy if they're up there.
Even Zoot Sims said he couldn't just blow off of changes on sight, but once he heard them and internalized them, look out!

[mike335]

Im no expert but I find that having an approach plan to the changes is a good idea (especially changes like inner urge where the key changes every chord) until you can get through the changes sounding decent. Then once you can do that think about adding a different plan etc, until you build up an array of ways to play the changes.

[destinytot]

I'm no expert, either - if it's difficult, I set it aside. But I go back to it periodically, and I'm often pleasantly surprised at the progress. I always know I'm not ready to approach something if I can't sing or hear the chord tones (from the root up) from symbols on a page.

[pushkar000]

Anything fast is a struggle. Anything new is a struggle too.

How I deal with working out changes - generally I check out approaches of different players over the same tune. That way I kind of learn how to play the tune as opposed to playing the changes. Sometimes(less than I should) I work out standard arpeggio or scale exercises over the changes. Here I am learning to play the changes as opposed to playing the tune. Generally once I have both of these ways worked out, I'm alright over the tune.

I have this thing where I set aside one hour a day, pick any one random tune, and beat the crap out of it from every angle I can think of.

[destinytot]

Athletics is a struggle for me. Music isn't. It's a holiday.

[Jonah]

here I'm thinking how to deal with stuff where you barely know what to play or how to make it

I do not feel myself an expert but... I think it is no magic...

I would not play something I do not understand as integral (and a s set of intergal parts)...

One of the general approaches is targeting

And I would not mix it with feel of time... the fact that you play with targets - does not mean that you play strictly in leanear concept of time feel... (Trane often feels like 'circular time' or like 'time stops' but he still has these targets, it is type of relations that makes this feel not target itself)...

I only set/appoint realtions between what seemed unrelated... Targeting here is not (though could be) necessasily direction (it could be literally direction of line, but not musically) more a way to establish connection...

if I cannot see it in the chart I can appoint it myself... like going from point to point.. that makes pathway pretty clear no matter how complex the changes seem.. what musical concept is used for it is another question...

How to appoint? It comes from hearing... usually I hear something that makes it integral and I have just to find out what is it... if I cannot hear this integrity beforehand I will not play it

[Hep To The Jive]

Athletics is a struggle for me. Music isn't. It's a holiday.

I feel the same way almost. But with some tunes I struggle to hear music in it, and then it's a problem. Inner Urge mentioned here, is one of those tunes. What would I play over it becomes irrelevant, since I can't hear the tune in the first place. It would be easy to say I just don't enjoy listening or playing it, but I feel part of being a pro you have to grind through stuff like that and with the smile. On the other hand, if a tune is melodic and nice, no matter how difficult the changes are, my ears would find a way somehow.

[wolflen]

complex is relative to context...a series of 8 chords can be easy..a series of 4 chords can be difficult...

this is not an quick fix solution..each tune being different but there should be something in the piece you can recognize..a bass line..a chord movement..a cadence..a turnaround..something to grab onto..

when I first heard the mahavishnu orchestra .. I didn't dare try to play any of it..i didn't understand it .. but slowly I listened over and over..and sure enough..ahhh..theres a chord change I know..ahh..the bass is doing this..ahh..the guitar riff is fast..but I was able to break some of it down..and I was able to figure out "the feel" of a couple of the tunes..not note for note..but some of what was going on

now after something like that-doing a Monk tune should be a piece of cake..well..not so fast..for whatever reason "straight, no chaser" took some doing to get the feel and finally the phrasing..same with "blue monk".. now these are blues structures..so the changes were not the problem..the timing was..and more than that..the "feel" of how monk attacked the notes..the articulation is a very important part of his playing..it may just be a Bb on the sheet music..but you have to "play it" the way monk does to make the piece come alive..he makes the notes stand out .. they could be behind the beat or before it and it almost makes them sound "wrong" but just playing them without that ingredient makes them sound "unfinished" somehow..even if the note for note is correct..

try a sonny rollings tune.."tenor madness" and then the "blue monk" tune..both are blues structures..find some common things about them..the feel is very different even if the changes are the same..

this is something no one can teach you..your own development will unfold as you become more aware of the subtle forces of music that cant be notated on paper..I remember watching a Segovia masterclass..the student was outstanding to my ear at the time..but the master stopped him several times and pointed out the way it should be played..not that the notes or timing were wrong..but the way he played them..today I would understand the difference..it only took a couple of decades to hear the difference..

[destinytot]

part of being a pro you have to grind through stuff like that

I admire that spirit, but it's not part of my make up.

[Jonah]

It would be easy to say I just don't enjoy listening or playing it, but I feel part of being a pro you have to grind through stuff like that and with the smile.

I will dare say that sometime I think this is a part pro staus that actually is bad for music... I know lots of pros who would disagree, but I know also personally top pros who really hate necessity to do everything in music to earn their living

Music is just not for that...
I heard too many meaningless performances played 'with a smile', or with very srious face or whatever - depends on situation... better an amateur who understands the music, then pro who imitates it

I don't want to get into argument about it - I know approxamately all that would be said... I do not deny professional status, I know they finally learn to take some benefits from these 'forced' gigs and jobs...

after all.. with years I came to idea that greatest players play actually like amateur but just at the fantastic level of control of the instrument... but musically they approach like novices... be it classics or jazz...

[mr. beaumont]

I've seen pros, real pros--decline a solo on a tune. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

I'm no expert either, but I'm big on writing etudes for stuff that trips me up. 4 bar sequence of chords that I can't navigate? I'll write ten licks that work. After a while it all seeps into my playing...hopefully...

And of course, the other thing on fast tunes is targets...you don't necessarily have to hit every change...but the ones you hit, HIT 'em.

[Jonah]

I'm no expert either, but I'm big on writing etudes for stuff that trips me up. 4 bar sequence of chords that I can't navigate? I'll write ten licks that work. After a while it all seeps into my playing...hopefully...

I like doing these things too..

But it is like if I play chess you can put myrself comlex problems that challenge and develpe my skills... it could be difficult but interesting...

But I do not have to play professional poker if I hate it... maybe it would improve my chess skillss.. but I just do not want to check it)

Sometimes defferent musics can be that far from each other...

[Hep To The Jive]

I will dare say that sometime I think this is a part pro staus that actually is bad for music... I know lots of pros who would disagree, but I know also personally top pros who really hate necessity to do everything in music to earn their living

Music is just not for that...
I heard too many meaningless performances played 'with a smile', or with very srious face or whatever - depends on situation... better an amateur who understands the music, then pro who imitates it

I don't want to get into argument about it - I know approxamately all that would be said... I do not deny professional status, I know they finally learn to take some benefits from these 'forced' gigs and jobs...

after all.. with years I came to idea that greatest players play actually like amateur but just at the fantastic level of control of the instrument... but musically they approach like novices... be it classics or jazz...

I know exactly what you 're saying. I, personally, hate to play something that I don't really feel or appreciate. And rest assured, I'm never gonna call a tune like that on a gig or jam session just to fit in with the hip crowd.

Honestly, I only encountered those a coupla times so far. Once I was just sitting in with a friend of mine's, a very accomplished guitarist, combo, and they called that Inner Urge tune. Since I've never heard it before, I just stayed out of that one. They all took long solos, I couldnt just grasp what the hell they were doing, to my ears its all sounded so random, and I'm not a complete newbie to modern jazz... Funny, but I noticed they cleared out the place (it was a rather classy reastaurant/bar) very quick after that...

Anyway, I just thought if I ever play a jazz gig with cats like that I will have to play stuff like that once in a while. What am I supposed to do, be honest and say I hate it and dont wanna do it? That would be rather unprofessional...what would you guys do, providing you are getting paid and want to get called back?

[destinytot]

be honest and say I hate it and dont wanna do i

That'd be my choice.

[Jonah]

Anyway, I just thought if I ever play a jazz gig with cats like that I will have to play stuff like that once in a while. What am I supposed to do, be honest and say I hate it and dont wanna do it? That would be rather unprofessional...what would you guys do, providing you are getting paid and want to get called back?

I am not a pro... so I choose...

I had a pro experience and partly this one of the reasons why I am not pro... (maybe wrong reason... but it is as it is now)

Though I do not feel myself to be one to judge anyone in this case... in real life every case is too complex.. and it is each one personal decision every time...

[pushkar000]

Anyway, I just thought if I ever play a jazz gig with cats like that I will have to play stuff like that once in a while. What am I supposed to do, be honest and say I hate it and dont wanna do it? That would be rather unprofessional...what would you guys do, providing you are getting paid and want to get called back?

I would say that part of music is also sometimes laying low for another band member to get what he/she wants. I feel like if they are playing tunes you like, it should work both ways. I'm not a pro (so not a very knowledgeable opinion). But when I jam with friends, they sometimes want to call these bunk tunes like Confirmation up at some ridiculous(for me) tempo. I'd rather do something else than some technical bebop workout tune but since they played my earlier tune I guess I'll gladly hang with it.

I guess if there's money to be earned and reputation at stake...all the more reason to do it. That is, if you can play the tune but don't want to. If you can't play the tune - better to sit out.

[Reg]

It's just music, if you don't understand, can't hear or don't have the skills to play complex tunes ...don't. But please don't imply it's a choice to not play the tune.... your not playing the tune because YOU CAN'T.

There's like two views... if you read... sight read well... any tune is just a tune. As long as you have the technical skills to translate the notated music into a performance.

So that's a... "BIG IF", right... do you have the technical skills to perform the music. Which leads to the next approach... you know the tune.... so the only thing holding you back would be the technical skills. Or you just don't want to play the tune.

Unless your living in a very small world...(as pushkar mentioned), sometimes you play music other people like... and you may not like it. Unless your really feeling entitled.

Eventually you'll become aware of most of the tunes... how you approach being able to perform them is what generally determines why some are more difficult.

OP... all BS aside, generally technical skills and understandings are what make some tunes more difficult.

Impressions... generally don't really understand or hear modal concepts and how to create relationships and develop them.

Conception... generally don't understand the harmony, the changes

Countdown....besides the tempo... same thing harmony, its a sequenced three tonic system.

Jordu... maybe tempo... the changes are pretty basic

Monk... rhythm, and harmonic rhythm

Inner urge...look for the pentatonic relationships between the Maj7th chords. Include the related min7th chord of each maj7 chord in these relationships... Henderson digs modal subs.

I'm a pro... but I played all these tunes when I was a Kid... a pretty ignorant kid.

It's generally not always the tunes that clear a room... usually it's the performance.

[destinytot]

any tune is just a tune.

I think that's the best way to look at tunes. I can say that about anything in my repertoire - confidently, but without nonchalance.

I used to be overawed by perceived difficulty of some tunes, so I would avoid the discipline of dealing with obstacles to learning:

generally technical skills and understandings are what make some tunes more difficult

But no more.

If I won't play a tune, I'll let it be out of choice; I won't put anyone down, and I may choose to not give a reason, but I won't play music I don't love - the true prerogative of the amateur, as in 'one who loves'... (I can hear Ron Isley/Phil Perry/Luther Vandross riffing on that as I write...)

PS I would add that I consider it beneath my dignity to play some tunes, which is why I choose not to do so.

[Reg]

"the true prerogative of the amateur" ... that's an interesting view.

Is choice really involved when you can't play a tune... to not play the tune. I'm thinking out loud... please don't take me wrong. It's not a perspective that I understand. I've always felt I owe the music as compared to the music owes me.

I'm the same person I was when I couldn't play the tunes... same amateur, just more skills and understanding of what the music is. I'll have to ponder the concept.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=destinytot;515280]I think that's the best way to look at tunes. I can say that about anything in my repertoire - confidently, but without nonchalance.

I used to be overawed by perceived difficulty of some tunes, so I would avoid the discipline of dealing with obstacles to learning:


But no more.

If I won't play a tune, I'll let it be out of choice; I won't put anyone down, and I may choose to not give a reason, but I won't play music I don't love - the true prerogative of the amateur, as in 'one who loves'... (I can hear Ron Isley/Phil Perry/Luther Vandross riffing on that as I write...)

PS I would add that I consider it beneath my dignity to play some tunes, which is why I choose not to do so.

It's very surprising to me to hear this sentiment coming from any musician . . . as well as it being a totaly dis of those who may have written the music you deem to be beneath your dignity. (The exception to my feelings on this would be the uber radical stuff such as gansta rap with all of the racist and misogynstic content in the lyrics . . . . and of course that wacko dude that was making weird noises on a guitar by scraping drum stick across the strings.) But, other than shit like that, I wouldn't think it shoud be beneath any musicians dignity to play any music. Choosing not to because you don't like the music is very different from it being beneath one's dignity. Wouldn't you agree?

[Hep To The Jive]

It's just music, if you don't understand, can't hear or don't have the skills to play complex tunes ...don't. But please don't imply it's a choice to not play the tune.... your not playing the tune because YOU CAN'T.

Technically it's not a problem, and I can follow the changes on the charts, but I don't hear it, like in a way that it doesn't make sense for my ears. So I can play it if I choose to. My saving grace has always been good sense of timing and form. Because of that I can get through, playing whatever, no concept, no joy, cringing inside... And you know what, it's fine by me, there's always a next tune, where I can really shine... hopefully. Of course, if somebody wants to play the whole gig standards like Inner Urge, I would turn it down, can't do that. I shouldn't really be worried though, anybody who heard me playing would figure out it's not my cuppa tea. lol

[grahambop]

Nothing wrong with Inner Urge if it's played properly - it's a great tune.

I should imagine a lot of jazz musicians would be only too happy to get a paid gig playing tunes like this.

[destinytot]

please don't take me wrong.

I won't; I read your posts with respect for your generosity and gratitude for the opportunity to reflect.

[Hep To The Jive]

Nothing wrong with Inner Urge if it's played properly - it's a great tune.

I should imagine a lot of jazz musicians would be only too happy to get a paid gig playing tunes like this.

It sure is, for some. The only thing i like about it is the swing feel of the rhythm section. The melodic and harmonic structure turns me off. Im honest, I dont have the aquired taste to appreciate this tune. I think, I hope jazz is broad enough to have place for musicians with different likes and dislikes. I have no problem at all other musicians playing and enjoying tunes like that.