Difficult chord changes

destinytot · 03-31-2015, 04:27 PM

The speed of jazz takes work. The only way to get yourself, your brain or whatever you want to call what's holding you back from playing what you want or think you want.... is to develop the musicianship, all the technical skills.

Thank you.

**Reg** · 03-31-2015, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

well... when you begin to feel secure about this difference... I am not really sure

Personally... I became secure from lots of performance and having done the work, I don't wow myself anymore, I enjoy making music... well maybe there are times when I finish playing where I wow myself, but not just my solo's, I get more wows with locking in with other musicians and really raising the level of performance, I enjoy seeing and hearing other musicians play their best, I enjoy recognizing skills of musicians and helping to create pathways where the level of the performance goes off the hook from we the musicians interacting and creating etc... who cares. personal yayas.

**Jonah** · 04-01-2015, 01:05 AM

That's great of course....
though this might be also the way 'wowing and impressing yourself'... not meaning you... just in general..

I just would not put it in these terms...

Right now have experience - not in the jazz field, but in classical - a pro lute who gives many recitals playing at the level I would not play concerts even for my cat... and feeling all right with that.
He has blog - I read some through -h seemed to be really 'impressed by himself'... when we met... I wanted to meet becasue no lute players around and I wanted to play duos... he turned out to be very nice guy .
We took a couple of rehearsls and I prefered to withdraw politely because he just repeated the same mistakes and rather stupid to me coming from neglegence...
The idea is he does not seem to think he is wowing and impressing himself... he is sure that he enjoys making music bringing in the audience (what's really interesting there's even some audience ready to be braught in)... I just stopped thinking about it in those terms and approaching this subject... because you can either go trying to explain it of jump into tough 'hemingwayish' stuff which might even more 'wowing yourself'...

**Vladan** · 04-02-2015, 05:17 AM

As an rank amateur (from the: I like the sound of some incarnations of Jazz, regardless of the way it's done, improvised, or not), not hearing changes, not knowing tunes and not being particularly interested in learning too many of them, I have not much to add.

However, since I love off topics, tangent and lateral references, as well as to follow forum as "a whole", as opposed to "per thread", just to say, intrigued by recent threads all with Giant Steps crawling within and around, ...

- I've learned the head. It is catchy and it is easy and I can play it at 300 bpm no problem, obviously, being in 1/2 notes for the most part.
Oh, yes, I don't care about those syncopations/ anticipations, whatever they are, I just play as I like to hear it and as it is easy for me to play.
I may be suffering fom Hans Groiner syndrome?! Or is it a disease?

- I've learned basic changes, I can "strum" them for couple of choruses at above 200 bpm, but not quite at 240 bpm, then ...

- I typed changes into BIAB and tried to noodle around at 220 bpm to 240 bpm ... I was surprised how easy it was to Rock 'n' Roll over it in couple of positions, maj/ min keys with some chromatics and "stretching" to accommodate chord notes.
Actually, I think, but haven't tried yet, playing plain pentatonics while shifting around would be even easier, while more odd/ square sounding ie. more appropriate for what is usually associated with this tune, as the expected sound.

- Of course, there's always an option to embellish the head's notes, but that's even shorter life span, in regard to keeping it interesting and fresh,
than "rockabilly blues" approach.

**sgcim** · 04-03-2015, 03:55 AM

The first recording of GS is a good example of what's involved. Trane had been working on it for some time, but Tommy Flanagan had to sight read and improvise on it, and he has some trouble with the improvising part of it.

Was TF an inferior improviser? No, so it must be the nature of the tune played at that fast a tempo.

Bob Brookmeyer, another superior improviser, thought it was a POS, and refused to play it.

I posted here that I practiced it at 320bpm for a couple of months, and I could do it, but I'd be the first to admit that I was just playing worked out patterns at that tempo, and I found concentrating on that tune for an extended period of time was detrimental to my improvisational ability.

It actually disrupted the connection between my ears and my fingers.

Playing it at a slower tempo is another case entirely, so it's the pace of the harmonic rhythm that makes it sound like an exercise, because that's exactly what Trane intended it to be. He even admitted this in an interview, and said that he thought it didn't work as a tune, but contained ideas that could be used in miniature in some pieces.

Further proof is that he only played GS ONCE live.

The sad fact is that he created some tenor players who could rattle off GS patterns at 320bpm, but who couldn't even swing on a Bb blues. I know a few of those jivers.

Working out some of the other tunes mentioned though, is a different story. As Reg suggested, you have to be able to understand the progressions, master the skills it takes to improvise on them, and develop the technique to play them at the desired tempo.

There are no more six nights a week gigs anymore, so the tried and true method that musicians used to have open to them to master difficult tunes is not available anymore.

The only other avenue is to have a lot of jam sessions, and play them on whatever gigs you can. You can use backing tracks, but that eliminates the process of interacting and reacting mentioned before.

I had a gig where a tenor player made me sight read and blow on Inner Urge, and i fell flat on my face.
We guitar players have to blow on tunes like that without anyone comping behind us, and at that tempo, it's hard to play chords and blow at the same time.
A walking bass on a tune like that, without a pianist to define things with comping, is a nebulous nightmare, so I try to have the bass player play some root-fifth (or b5th for the first chord)ostinato rhythmic patterns to help define the tonality/modality.

**christianm77** · 04-03-2015, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

The first recording of GS is a good example of what's involved. Trane had been working on it for some time, but Tommy Flanagan had to sight read and improvise on it, and he has some trouble with the improvising part of it.

Was TF an inferior improviser? No, so it must be the nature of the tune played at that fast a tempo.

Bob Brookmeyer, another superior improviser, thought it was a POS, and refused to play it.

I posted here that I practiced it at 320bpm for a couple of months, and I could do it, but I'd be the first to admit that I was just playing worked out patterns at that tempo, and I found concentrating on that tune for an extended period of time was detrimental to my improvisational ability.

It actually disrupted the connection between my ears and my fingers.

Playing it at a slower tempo is another case entirely, so it's the pace of the harmonic rhythm that makes it sound like an exercise, because that's exactly what Trane intended it to be. He even admitted this in an interview, and said that he thought it didn't work as a tune, but contained ideas that could be used in miniature in some pieces.

Further proof is that he only played GS ONCE live.

The sad fact is that he created some tenor players who could rattle off GS patterns at 320bpm, but who couldn't even swing on a Bb blues. I know a few of those jivers.

Working out some of the other tunes mentioned though, is a different story. As Reg suggested, you have to be able to understand the progressions, master the skills it takes to improvise on them, and develop the technique to play them at the desired tempo.

There are no more six nights a week gigs anymore, so the tried and true method that musicians used to have open to them to master difficult tunes is not available anymore.

The only other avenue is to have a lot of jam sessions, and play them on whatever gigs you can. You can use backing tracks, but that eliminates the process of interacting and reacting mentioned before.

I had a gig where a tenor player made me sight read and blow on Inner Urge, and i fell flat on my face.
We guitar players have to blow on tunes like that without anyone comping behind us, and at that tempo, it's hard to play chords and blow at the same time.
A walking bass on a tune like that, without a pianist to define things with comping, is a nebulous nightmare, so I try to have the bass player play some root-fifth (or b5th for the first chord)ostinato rhythmic patterns to help define the tonality/modality.

It's good to have a simple bass on this and clearly outline the changes. But yes it's tough for the guitar player with no chords with no piano.

I think Inner Urge is a bit easier, although sight unseen would be hard to play...

Recently, I'm getting into the alternating chords and lines a bit more as most of my gigs are without piano. This I find hard to do at fast tempos, but it does seem to 'cool' me down a bit and help play more phrases and less barrages of 8th notes.

If you haven't tried this, I'd recommend anyone to try practicing 8's and 4's of chords and lines. So say 4 bars of chords, 4 bars of line, 4 bars of chords again. You could also try odd numbers of bars - 3 of each for example.

If you get a good contrast in volume/tone colour between the lines and chords, it helps fill up the sound and create an almost pianistic effect. Obviously a lot of jazz guys are really good at this - Kurt Rosenwinkel is an example, but it's technique that goes back.

But it is interesting regarding the ears thing. Obviously, I think if you hear Giant Steps changes - practice singing it as well as playing it so it's not totally mechanical, then it is a musically valuable thing then, but as you say you have to do this slow. But then, playing anything at 320bpm is not so much practice as it is a technical warm up IMHO - and truly improvising at that tempo is more or less impossible. I find my actual practice takes place at around 60bpm :-)

Gigs wise, it depends were you are I think and how hard you hustle. I know guys who play a lot of gigs, 250 year or so! But they won't be playing Inner Urge - mostly standards & swing stuff.

**Reg** · 04-03-2015, 07:07 PM

If one played tunes that were called difficult changes for six months or so, different tunes. There are only so many chords and chord patterns. Just like being able to play different blues tunes, or even different keys... eventually you'll get it, one way or another. You do need technical skills to play at faster tempos...but it's just music.

Since were using giant steps as example of difficult tune... what makes the tune difficult besides the tempo. The changes are about as simple as you can get... the harmonic rhythm or phrasing of the chords and tonal targets might make changes feel different, but again probable just the tempo, i would think anyone on this forum would understand the three tonic concept and the use of V I's to help imply or reinforce the tonal centers.

The changes can become complex if one starts to apply different organization relationships between the tonal centers or even within each tonal target... but I wouldn't believe that would even come into play until one is comfortable with the basics.

If you really want to get into difficult changes... I've posted some tunes I see that are not close to standard... and maj/min functional harmony will lead you off the cliff... but again once you become aware of the compositional organization... their just tunes.

I'm in studio next week, with a very contemporary band... I'll post some pictures of charts, I'm sure they will be difficult changes...

**sgcim** · 04-03-2015, 08:01 PM

That's what I said- the fast tempo with chord changes every two beats that go into three different key centers- bars 1-3.
Previously a song like Have You Met Miss Jones did the major 3rd chord relationship thing on the bridge, but in a less mechanical fashion than GS at 320bpm.

The ability to improvise off of GS at that tempo (which I can do) does not make you a good jazz improviser, just someone adept at spewing patterns very quickly.

**wolflen** · 04-03-2015, 09:07 PM

the flip side of the ultra fast changes but with a GS feel...

very simple chords Bb Db7 GbMa7 Cb/B Bb

sometime called "Coltrane turnaround" or Dameron turnaround-some very nice lines can be discovered over this progression

Reg..you might like this..

sometimes I use the first five chords(six) of GS as a fill, intro or ending on some things - depending on what is being played

BMa6 D9 GMa7 Bb13 EbMa7 add chord Gmi11-(G C F Bb) let ring then play high F note-13fret

**christianm77** · 04-04-2015, 06:17 AM

Yes I think if you can find things to do with GS (or any other chord progression you practice) then it's not a waste of time. A lot of the music I play falls into the stylistic category, so I don't always get to have fun with that stuff though :-(

**Reg** · 04-04-2015, 09:53 AM

Yea...like it. So the G- is sub for Ebmaj which opens the tonal target or can become Dsus for target of G... and you still get through the three tonics, yes and transposed as needed, cool I'll try it tonight. I have used the last 7 bars for years as somewhat standard intro or ending, just back door to transpose as needed.

Christian...I play very straight gigs all the time, tux and all the BS... that pay well etc... Part of the fun is playing musical games, playing a blues with 4 bars of 3/4, 4bars of 5/4 and 4 of 4/4 etc... or play sub games harmonically. Last night playing straight gig and someone called St Thomas... so I said lets play the tune in relative minor...or play a different bridge etc... at least it makes you think and sometimes can really entertain the audience.

**christianm77** · 04-04-2015, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea...like it. So the G- is sub for Ebmaj which opens the tonal target or can become Dsus for target of G... and you still get through the three tonics, yes and transposed as needed, cool I'll try it tonight. I have used the last 7 bars for years as somewhat standard intro or ending, just back door to transpose as needed.

Christian...I play very straight gigs all the time, tux and all the BS... that pay well etc... Part of the fun is playing musical games, playing a blues with 4 bars of 3/4, 4bars of 5/4 and 4 of 4/4 etc... or play sub games harmonically. Last night playing straight gig and someone called St Thomas... so I said lets play the tune in relative minor...or play a different bridge etc... at least it makes you think and sometimes can really entertain the audience.

It doesn't sound like the gigs you play operate with same stylistic constraints as mine - most of my gigs are swing or early jazz gigs of various kinds.

Prewar stuff was a pretty alien style when I started - I came from a post-bop/modern jazz vibe. In fact, many really good jazz guitar guys can't dep the gigs I do, precisely because they are used to more freedom, haven't listened to the music of this era or learned the language and can't really be bothered to learn (fair enough!).

Personally I enjoyed the strictness of learning the style, and I think it's been good for me, but I can imagine a lot of people would be turned off by this. It's the culture of the musicians who play this stuff - very curatorial.

In contrast, most straightahead gigs you can basically do what you like to a large degree. I'm doing more of these though, although my playing is pretty old-school now by the standards of most of the players I know!

That said, if I was to put my finger on the difference between performing early and modern jazz is that in modern jazz you have a lot more ways to hide your mistakes. In this sense, it's actually easier in some ways. While the changes are generally drawn from a smaller number of possibilities in early jazz, you really have to nail them, every chord tone in it's right place, no wishy washy modal noodling around. :-)

Difficult prewar tune changes wise - how about Limehouse Blues.... I'll post more as I think of them...

**christianm77** · 04-04-2015, 10:30 AM

(Well half of them are curatorial - the other half are frustrated bebop players!)

**Jehu** · 04-05-2015, 05:02 PM

Hey Christian, I'd be interested to hear about your path to learning the early/swing styles, and how you approached the genre. I realise we're getting OT here, so feel free to move to a new thread, or PM, or even just tell me to screw off if you'd prefer.

**christianm77** · 04-17-2015, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jehu

Hey Christian, I'd be interested to hear about your path to learning the early/swing styles, and how you approached the genre. I realise we're getting OT here, so feel free to move to a new thread, or PM, or even just tell me to screw off if you'd prefer.

Sure - I'll pop up a new thread when I have a moment. Back from travelling for a couple of weeks...

**Boston Joe** · 04-18-2015, 11:09 AM

Not understanding all the hate for Inner Urge. I love that tune!

**Vladan** · 04-21-2015, 10:09 AM

In regard to Giant Steps, I've recorded something ... slow ...

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/showc...s-dummies.html

210 bpm Giant Steps for Dummies ... (bars 1 to 4 only)
... learning/ practicing one own line over the first 4 bars, with own basss and rhythm accompaniment

**Roberoo** · 12-25-2017, 03:52 PM

+1 on this. Dominant cycles drive me crazy. I can play them and get through a bop gig but hate them from a musical perspective so I have a hard time hearing/playing something over top that I find pleasing. My soloing sounds like cycling and that, to me, is not musical... Two-Five cycles (they are the same thing anyway) drive me bats too...they sound so contrived and inevitable. Of course I don't hate 2-5s just the endless and tiresome cycling of them in some (usually hard bop) tunes. I do understand how people can be driven by the challenge of mastering these progressions at high BPMs and I did some of that musical homework in college. I don't revisit those challenges if I can avoid them. Shit they almost drove me out of college! Having said that I find myself prepping for a gig doing just this very thing as I am hacking my way through Dance of the Infidels at this very moment...

Originally Posted by christianm77

I'll go back and read the other comments in a second, but I just wanted to say, that for something commonplace, I've always found rapid dominant cycles very difficult. I really do need to work on them more.

Dominant cycles are far more likely to turn up in non douche bag repetoire :-) (no offense, but many of us feel anyone who calls Conception or Countdown without giving time to prepare is in a sense a douchebag, on the other hand we earnestly prepare fearing the hour of the douchebag may be upon us. Possibly it is because my angry young man jam session days are behind me. Alternatively, it's like war. It won't be me who starts 26-2, but by god, I'll finish it.)

Even short cycles, such as that in Lulu's Back in Town (VI7 II7 V7 I) I find tricky, let alone the long cycle in Jordu. Maybe I'll practice Jordu tomorrow.

And then you have the cycle dominant in Rhythm Changes F#7 B7 E7 A7 D7 G7 C7 F7 Bb Bo7 CM7 F7 for the A....