Difficult chord changes

**mr. beaumont** · 03-29-2015, 09:07 PM

Well, truthfully, those bop heads...anybody calling 'em in weird keys is just trying to be difficult.

**christianm77** · 03-30-2015, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, truthfully, those bop heads...anybody calling 'em in weird keys is just trying to be difficult.

Sure. But that's not the reason I'm putting them into weird keys :-).

**Jonah** · 03-30-2015, 06:09 AM

Giant Steps IMO is basically an etude with little other musical value beyond 'hey look at this!' -

I would say that 'hey look at this' is a part of musical aesthetics of jazz... I mean if it is sincere...

Check this vid - the way Bird looks at 0:28 listening to Hawk is 'hey look at this'))))

**Jonah** · 03-30-2015, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Reg
At some point, you don't have to learn a tune to be able to perform the tune.

That's a great point.

Yes, I really agree...

the learning process is to selcet some few pieces and really work them through... musically, technically...
Then you take dozens and just sight-read them properly and musically...

Final goal is to play music, not to keep practicing.

This 'ever-practicing' syndrome often has negative impact... people want to have everything done and ready, though real musical performance is always a bit challenge for youself... As listener I do not waat to come and listen to a report of the excersices done for the last period, I want to follow player where he did not come before himself

**pushkar000** · 03-30-2015, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Oh man, bebop. Every year I go 'I'll study something more contemporary' and get sucked back into bop right away. For me, I would like to truly understand and hear every head I learn in all 12 keys, the true phrasing of the rhythm and the tonal function of every line. This I think would be a strong basic grounding in the music.

I've made a lot of progress with this, but my ability to play head x in all 12 at tempo on the gig is not yet there. But it's fun working on it. But my ability to regurgitate Donna Lee by rote tends to get less attention. Hopefully it'll all be worth it in the long run :-)

Some cats get this down in their teens :-)

Just going through the Barry Harris videos makes me realise how deep it goes.

BTW: If you want a list of bebop tunes, I can PM you the list I've been working through over the last year or three. I think learning as many heads as you can by ear is something I should have done ages ago. There are also mistakes in some published sources that are interesting when you spot them.

If you have any familiarity with swing repertoire, many if not most bop tunes are based on earlier tunes, not all of them well known to modern players.

Thanks man I would really appreciate that! Sent a PM.
I'm just not finding much headway into bop.

I am not very familiar but working on the swing repertoire currently. I want to try and work some bebop in there as well. Do my homework basically as they say.
I make a point of learning everything by ear. I figure ultimately that's the only thing you can really trust, so why neglect it?

**christianm77** · 03-30-2015, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

Thanks man I would really appreciate that! Sent a PM.
I'm just not finding much headway into bop.

I am not very familiar but working on the swing repertoire currently. I want to try and work some bebop in there as well. Do my homework basically as they say.
I make a point of learning everything by ear. I figure ultimately that's the only thing you can really trust, so why neglect it?

That makes more sense than my journey. I've gone backwards. I think swing is a great foundation for bebop. For my own experiences, bop is a lot more accessible to me now that I've worked through some swing stuff - when I was coming at it from the other direction it was a lot more mysterious. For example - I can specify the changes of 90% of the bop repertoire in a sentence. For example:

Scrapple is Honeysuckle 'A' with an F rhythm bridge
Move is Lady be Good in Bb with a Honeysuckle bridge.
Dewey Square is Lady be Good in Eb, but with IV minors, not IV7's.

And so on. I now find it amazing that there are really good musicians out there who say things like 'hey this Lennie Tristano head has vey similar changes to Donna Lee.' 'Oh, it's Indiana changes, then.' 'What's Indiana?'

In Tristano circles, apparently it's common to refer to the head by the original song - so 'Background Music' is called as 'All of Me.' Confusing feckers.

Top changes for Bop tunes
12 Bar Blues
Rhythm Changes
Honeysuckle Rose
Lady Be Good

Quite a few other ones: Whispering, Indiana, All of Me, Out of Nowhere, ATTYA, Cherokee etc have received the bebop treatment, but not as much as the classic swing jam tunes above. I like to learn the original tune and then the heads over the tune. I want to write a bunch heads for swing tunes like Runnin' Wild that I can't find a head for.

You do find a few 'bespoke' progressions like Confirmation, or heavily subbed blues like Dance of the Infidels or Blues for Alice.

PS: Add Yardbird Suite and Move on to the list I sent. BTW...

**christianm77** · 03-30-2015, 07:22 AM

Oh Segment is another one - based on Comes Love IRC

destinytot · 03-30-2015, 07:33 AM

In Tristano circles, apparently it's common to refer to the head by the original song - so 'Background Music' is called as 'All of Me.'

Great story!

**mr. beaumont** · 03-30-2015, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Sure. But that's not the reason I'm putting them into weird keys :-).

What in tarnation!? Got one of the vocalese-ers, i see. Git a rope...

**Reg** · 03-30-2015, 11:20 AM

Isn't the look from Bird... in reference to dexter trying to fake remembering the lines he played because they were re filming the shots...

Yea... amateurs, practice and memorize. I really don't know, I've been playing gigs since I was 10 or 11... Practice has always been gigs. But I know I don't need to rehearse music to perform. I can sight read and understand music... but I can only sight read what I can physically play. Difficult changes are only difficult because you don't understand them... or don't have the skills to perform them...

If your going to play jazz beyond your personal small pond.... you need to be able to play other peoples music. Generally most musicians don't like to play tunes they don't know because they're from the trial and error and memorize school of music... nothing wrong with that approach, but it does lead to... DIFFICULT CHANGES SYNDROME. Very contagious for guitar players... be careful. I believe you can catch it over the net.

If you actually try playing difficult changes with an organized approach... eventually you'll find out where your having problems. But maybe that is the problem... your approach to playing, I personally don't know, but generally it won't change unless you do something about it.

**Jonah** · 03-30-2015, 12:55 PM

Isn't the look from Bird... in reference to dexter trying to fake remembering the lines he played because they were re filming the shots...

sorry... i dont get what it means ... too realaxed syntaxis for non-native speaker probably... and who's dexter there?

**grahambop** · 03-30-2015, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

sorry... i dont get what it means ... too realaxed syntaxis for non-native speaker probably... and who's dexter there?

OK I'll have a go. I think Reg meant Bird and Coleman Hawkins, in that film clip. I read somewhere that in those days, the sound was sometimes recorded first, then the pictures were recorded separately, for technical reasons. But this meant the musicians often had to mime to their own playing.

Apparently Bird found the whole thing hilarious, and in that clip he was clowning around and fooling with Coleman Hawkins while Hawk was miming his own solo.

**grahambop** · 03-30-2015, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I want to write a bunch heads for swing tunes like Runnin' Wild that I can't find a head for.

Check out this great version of Running Wild by Coleman Hawkins. It's almost getting into bebop territory.

**Jonah** · 03-30-2015, 03:28 PM

OK I'll have a go. I think Reg meant Bird and Coleman Hawkins, in that film clip. I read somewhere that in those days, the sound was sometimes recorded first, then the pictures were recorded separately, for technical reasons. But this meant the musicians often had to mime to their own playing.

Apparently Bird found the whole thing hilarious, and in that clip he was clowning around and fooling with Coleman Hawkins while Hawk was miming his own solo.

Thank you...
I am not sure about this case but I thought on the contarary they began recording video and sound separately later mostly because TV production was all live in early days... it was just much cheaper... I think at least till mid 50s... they probably pre-recorded only TV shows with significant budget and they were also recorded mostly with live music and without re-recording of voices

Thought I do not see any mics in that clip...

Anyway whatever evoked Parker's gesture I think it illustrates the idea I tried to put down here ... besides I think it was in his personality to make things like this

**christianm77** · 03-30-2015, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Isn't the look from Bird... in reference to dexter trying to fake remembering the lines he played because they were re filming the shots...

Yea... amateurs, practice and memorize. I really don't know, I've been playing gigs since I was 10 or 11... Practice has always been gigs. But I know I don't need to rehearse music to perform. I can sight read and understand music... but I can only sight read what I can physically play. Difficult changes are only difficult because you don't understand them... or don't have the skills to perform them...

If your going to play jazz beyond your personal small pond.... you need to be able to play other peoples music. Generally most musicians don't like to play tunes they don't know because they're from the trial and error and memorize school of music... nothing wrong with that approach, but it does lead to... DIFFICULT CHANGES SYNDROME. Very contagious for guitar players... be careful. I believe you can catch it over the net.

If you actually try playing difficult changes with an organized approach... eventually you'll find out where your having problems. But maybe that is the problem... your approach to playing, I personally don't know, but generally it won't change unless you do something about it.

Good point. If you never go outside your comfort zone of tunes you can already play, then you will be limited to playing that type of stuff. My interest now (beyond just playing pickup gigs with nice players) is to do more projects (other people's music) at the moment, so flexibility is very useful. I also get a fair amount of deps, which is always a challenge. Sight reading one note or chord at a time is no use - you do have to be able to understand structures at a glance.

Obviously one way to develop is 'endurance gigging' - the sort of thing where you play a few gigs a day, and play until you are literally mentally and physically exhausted. The inferior alternative, I guess, is practice... But you practice to get good enough to work?

I really like rehearsing, though....

**grahambop** · 03-30-2015, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Thank you...
I am not sure about this case but I thought on the contarary they began recording video and sound separately later mostly because TV production was all live in early days... it was just much cheaper... I think at least till mid 50s... they probably pre-recorded only TV shows with significant budget and they were also recorded mostly with live music and without re-recording of voices

Here's the explanation:

Coleman Hawkins And Charlie Parker Were Not Particularly Good Actors : A Blog Supreme : NPR

**Sti Eci Tephor** · 03-30-2015, 07:13 PM

[QUOTE

=targuit;515685]There are some tunes that I really do not like. Giant Steps, Cherokee - come to mind. Even the recent tune of the month - All Of You - just doesn't intrigue me at all. If you are getting paid to

play, it's one thing. But unless there is monetary or some other incentive....[/QUOTE]

I can understand Giant Steps, but how do you not like Cherokee! I guess beauty really is in the eye of the bee-keeper.

**Jonah** · 03-31-2015, 01:40 AM

Good point. If you never go outside your comfort zone of tunes you can already play, then you will be limited to playing that type of stuff.

Why not?

I hate this 'comfort zone' term... one should be in his comfort zone to play well... and he should try to get into his most comfort zone... not to get out of it.

I understand Reg's approach here, he came to forum with an idea to teach... so his attitude is quite clear, this is his only 'role' on the site. And this 'down-to-earth' approach I met quite often among the teachers, and sometimes it really helps for students who just do not understand that they have just to work some time maybe without inspiration, just working...

On the other hand this is forum, not school, lots of different people, with different background, age.. not all of them ready to be treated like students in any context.

the other point I know teachers who do not teach like this...

This comfort zone stuff is also one this 'pushing instrument/.. I hate pushing in art - it's like soneone thinks he knows bette for another person what he needs, you never know.. I have seen too many

PS
no criticizing, Reg, I read practically all of your posts and often they give some inportant ideas, experience is invaluable, and the fact you share it jighly appreciated...

I just would like that someone would also highloght that music is not ability to play scales dayli, and is not ability to play any style in any gig, is not ability to sight-read, is not ability to play without rehearsals..

All this tools are needed but they are waste of time and toil if one does not get what music is...

I just feel like this is getting forgotten behind 'tough' talks about routine BS... sometimes I can hear btw a voice of pro saying: drop this crap, just keep working... I would answer No, because this is not a regular job where keep working is enough to do it...

**Jonah** · 03-31-2015, 03:11 AM

Here's the explanation:

Coleman Hawkins And Charlie Parker Were Not Particularly Good Actors : A Blog Supreme : NPR

Really thanks, grahambop .. and thier faces in teh clip look so funny now when you know the story behind it...

destinytot · 03-31-2015, 08:29 AM

I'm working on a Bacharach tune, and this thread has given me a helpful kick up the behind towards getting to where I can articulate its inherent beauty. God, I love this music. Thanks all.

**christianm77** · 03-31-2015, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Why not?

I hate this 'comfort zone' term... one should be in his comfort zone to play well... and he should try to get into his most comfort zone... not to get out of it.

Actually I quite agree. My wording was poor - we should talk about expanding the comfort zone, perhaps.

The challenge for a working musician is usually to make their comfort zone as large as possible - at least where I live. Mostly I play jazz tunes by memory for a living, but I have taken gigs including contemporary Opera, bluegrass/country, celidh, Baroque continuo and middle eastern music, African highlife, and sight-reading originals not to mention the obvious rock/pop stuff. I can't say I was very good at all of these gigs, but they all taught me much more than I would have learned from practicing at home.

In London, if you want to earn a living as a guitar player, flexibility is necessary. It may be that this is actually at detriment to the music. Tristano regarded commercial gigs as an obstacle to the development of a true artist. Not everyone agrees.

(re: Tristano, I can't resist posting/reposting this)

It sounds like Reg has a large comfort zone from years and years of playing with loads of musicians, some of them world class. I do think experience acquired on the gig is the most important to the performing musician.

On the other hand, there are players such as Lee Konitz who are well known for playing a limited repertoire but having an endless amount to say on it. That to me is where the real improvisation is, in a way - playing a song you've played millions of times as if it's the first time you've ever played it.

That said, you still need to expand your range of expression to do this - it's just that you are focussing on a few tunes, rather than finding commonalities and structures in a large repertoire. In a way, it's actually the same thing.

I do often feel players who moan about playing obvious tunes perhaps are missing the point. After all, how many great records have been Rhythm tunes or 12-bar blues.

Originally Posted by Jonah

I understand Reg's approach here, he came to forum with an idea to teach... so his attitude is quite clear, this is his only 'role' on the site. And this 'down-to-earth' approach I met quite often among the teachers, and sometimes it really helps for students who just do not understand that they have just to work some time maybe without inspiration, just working...

On the other hand this is forum, not school, lots of different people, with different background, age.. not all of them ready to be treated like students in any context.

the other point I know teachers who do not teach like this...

This comfort zone stuff is also one this 'pushing instrument/.. I hate pushing in art - it's like soneone thinks he knows bette for another person what he needs, you never know.. I have seen too many

PS
no criticizing, Reg, I read practically all of your posts and often they give some inportant ideas, experience is invaluable, and the fact you share it jighly appreciated...

I just would like that someone would also highloght that music is not ability to play scales dayli, and is not ability to play any style in any gig, is not ability to sight-read, is not ability to play without rehearsals..

All this tools are needed but they are waste of time and toil if one does not get what music is...

I just feel like this is getting forgotten behind 'tough' talks about routine BS... sometimes I can hear btw a voice of pro saying: drop this crap, just keep working... I would answer No, because this is not a regular job where keep working is enough to do it...

I agree with last paragraph to an extent. I might not be on a level where I can embody jazzly virtues to all and sundry, but from my own development has been highly non linear. Often looking at things in a new way can unblock progress.

That said, I value down to earth advice because ultimately what you need to *think* about is the practicalities of your music, whether it's running scales in the practice room, learning songs for a gig, writing tunes for your next album, or when picking up the phone to hustle for work. Anything beyond that is a waste of energy.

While practicing the 'right brain' stuff is great too (slow improv etc) anything that makes me self-involved as a player is poisonous, for me, this includes, too much preoccupation with ways to be 'creative' and massive difficulties with self doubt (which ultimately comes from self-obsession.)

Most of one's work on creativity is getting the brain out of the way. In this regard doing something very strict over and over is a great way of doing this. I'm finding this practicing the Barry Harris scale rules, for example.

**pushkar000** · 03-31-2015, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I'm working on a Bacharach tune, and this thread has given me a helpful kick up the behind towards getting to where I can articulate its inherent beauty. God, I love this music. Thanks all.

Here's a beautiful rendition of Close To You

**Klatu** · 03-31-2015, 10:18 AM

Have you Met Miss Jones?

**Reg** · 03-31-2015, 10:35 AM

Yea... I don't push the inspirational approach. generally because you either have it or you don't. And because you'll never know if you do until you develop the skills to express yourself. Wowing and impressing yourself is one thing... bringing an audience into your world and taking them for a ride is another. Basically anyone can play background music, or perform a show type of performance... playing tunes you know and have rehearsed etc...but being able to react and interact with skilful jazz musicians in live performance... anywhere needs much more than basic musicianship... there are no difficult changes, there is no box.

No good, bad, no right or wrong when just playing jazz tunes, but being a jazz guitarist and playing jazz tunes is different and requires jazz skills. The speed of jazz takes work. The only way to get yourself, your brain or whatever you want to call what's holding you back from playing what you want or think you want.... is to develop the musicianship, all the technical skills. Be fair to yourself... don't talk yourself into or paint a picture that works for the moment.

Disclaimer... very personal POV.