Difficult chord changes

[edh]

"Is choice really involved when you can't play a tune... to not play the tune. I'm thinking out loud... please don't take me wrong. It's not a perspective that I understand. I've always felt I owe the music as compared to the music owes me."

@ Reg, to be fair, he didn't say he couldn't, just that he wouldn't play a tune he didn't like. Of course if you don't like a tune chances are you're not going to learn it.

Here is his post:

"If I won't play a tune, I'll let it be out of choice; I won't put anyone down, and I may choose to not give a reason, but I won't play music I don't love - the true prerogative of the amateur, as in 'one who loves'... (I can hear Ron Isley/Phil Perry/Luther Vandross riffing on that as I write...) "

P.S. highlighting is mine.

[destinytot]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;515296]

It's very surprising to me to hear this sentiment coming from any musician

It's spoken, nevertheless, from a position of self-awareness and sincerity - and (I add, with eyes rolling toward the heavens) an abundant admiration, reverence and due deference for creators and champions of music.

But thank you for challenging me on this, Patrick2.

What I object to has nothing to do with elements of music per se, but everything to do with what happens when tunes take on new meaning.

Music is a cultural tool. Much music is liberating, which I celebrate. Sometimes, however, it is constraining - and I consider it to be beneath my dignity to participate in its proliferation.

I wouldn't think it shoud be beneath any musicians dignity to play any music

While it remains my own prerogative to define the terms of my own dignity, I do my best to conduct myself responsibly with regard to the music I make: "First, do no harm" - to myself or others. I applaud the example set by the OP and others, but my contribution is intended as a constructive one and I stand by my comment. Culture matters.

[grahambop]

I'm interested in hearing what chord changes you are struggling with the most and how you deal with issues regarding playing well over difficult changes. Now playing a really good solo over "easy" changes is an art in itself (Wes on "Impressions", wow!), but here I'm thinking how to deal with stuff where you barely know what to play or how to make it. Here is a list of the tunes I find difficult and how I deal with them. Maybe your perspective could shed new light over a few of them. And feel free to share tunes you find difficult to play over.

Here goes:

Countdown: Here I try to make the changes and use Trane and Kreisberg for lines. Oddly, the last line (Em F7 Bbmaj7 A7), is sometimes the most difficult to play something nice over.

Conception: "random" dominant chords all over the place over a "crazy" head. This one is really tough not to sound like a guide tone chaser. Could use some advice here.

Jordu b-section: same type of challenge as "conception", here a cycle of dominant chords. Difficult not to sound like playing arpeggios all over the place

Inner Urge: the last 8 bars. Wow! I can make the changes but making it sound melodic and interesting is hard. Lots of nice versions out there to listen to though.

Monk tunes. Well... all of them

If I'm stuck, I listen to some good examples to get ideas. I think it was Joe Henderson who said ' the answer to all your questions is on the records'.

Conception - check out Miles Davis 'Deception' on Birth of the Cool (it's virtually the same tune). Miles plays quite a simple melodic solo I think.
Also check out out versions by Chet Baker - he did a few. Always very melodic and flowing.

Jordu - Clifford Brown, also check what Duke Jordan does with it (he wrote it!) - I think his version is on youtube somewhere.

Inner Urge - I guess Joe Henderson is the best place to look. Some of his solo is probably unplayable on the guitar, but some parts are more straightforward.

Monk - loads of versions out there - take your pick!

[grahambop]

It sure is, for some. The only thing i like about it is the swing feel of the rhythm section. The melodic and harmonic structure turns me off. Im honest, I dont have the aquired taste to appreciate this tune. I think, I hope jazz is broad enough to have place for musicians with different likes and dislikes. I have no problem at all other musicians playing and enjoying tunes like that.

Fair enough. I can't play Inner Urge properly yet, so I wouldn't play it myself, because I can't do it justice.

[GuyBoden]

I remember trying to play over "difficult changes" too early and playing complete BS. I went back to playing simpler changes and gradually I added slightly more complex changes.

If I can't hear the changes, I certainly won't be able to create good improv over the changes.

It's all in the ears.

[henryrobinett]

Just break it down section by section or sub-section. Nothing is too difficult if you know how to approach it.

Liking or disliking a tune is often no more than understanding it and being able to or not being able to play it. Every tune can be a challenge and fun most often. Being able to negotiate the changes is one of the more basic steps to being able to play a tune. Style, timing and vocabulary are much more important.

[henryrobinett]

For myself I don't particularly listen other people versions. I actually I never do this when learning a tune. I just play through the changes and hear it the way I hear it.

[whiskey02]

To the OP,

TRIADS. Yep, that's my whole answer, TRIADS.

[Reg]

Just to keep Henrys comments in perspective... and I apologize Henry if I'm assuming... Henry believes in his ears, his instincts, he trust himself.... at least he accepts what he performs. Generally don't need to be shown, need to hear or taught how a tune goes... already been there.

We seem to be just talking about difficult, not new... I also trust what I play, I don't need to rehearse or know what tunes, arrangements etc...I'm going to play at gig, session or whatever. I'm well aware that there are many better guitarist but know that what I hear and perform will add to the performance and realization of the tunes.

edh... yea I agree... but my comments were about.... you can't play the tune. We're talking about difficult tunes... and the fact that many can't play the tunes...

Not because they choose to not play them because they don't feel like it... for whatever reason, don't like, cultural, below dignity, they suck..whatever reason... they can't play them yet.

At some point, you don't have to learn a tune to be able to perform the tune.

There seems to be different understandings about performing jazz, no right or wrong, just different.... I don't need to learn a tune to be able to perform the tune, I understand the music, the styles of music.

I did post short aspects about tunes OP listed.. I'll posts some more... You need to be able to make quick on the spot analysis of tunes...

Countdown... don't just try and make the changes... understand the changes, memorizing lines to play through the changes... doesn't teach you whats going on. What are the lines implying... Like I said before.. it's a sequence of a three tonic system. Bb to Gb to D. with V's to each.... then down a whole step.... same chord pattern and then down a whole step again. Then recap or reinforcement of reference tonality D.

There are more harmonic details... subs, modal interchange etc... but that's it

Conception... Pretty straight ahead... A A B A... Use of Relative maj/min and extended Dominant, and their subs and of course II V's. Some think of a two tonic system... Db and E but personally the relative harmonic relationships feel more natural

Jordu's the same concepts, just not as complicated.

Impressions...again Jazz modal concepts of organization... I've posted a million times.

Monk straight ahead except for the rhythmic organization.

Inner urge... all Henderson tunes have a few harmonic and melodic relationships going on, usually deceptive or camouflaged harmony... but basic changes, and he always looks for different methods of organizing the changes, many times using Pentatonic note collections for root motion with modal harmony on top. His tunes usually have different options... that's one of the cool and enjoyable aspects of performing them... they can have different results.

[destinytot]

At some point, you don't have to learn a tune to be able to perform the tune.

That's a great point.

Whether I know a song or not, I try to please customers by taking requests on solo gigs at restaurants, but I play (rather than sing) so that I'm getting value from testing whether I can work tunes out quickly on the spot. I've learned to recover quickly when I mess up. However, if I'm clear about what I'm trying to do, I don't usually mess up; I play with conviction, enthusiasm and expression.

My point is that having a precise understanding of what's going on would be as important to overcoming difficulties with the changes of Giant Steps as it would be to those of Happy Birthday.

[targuit]

There are some tunes that I really do not like. Giant Steps, Cherokee - come to mind. Even the recent tune of the month - All Of You - just doesn't intrigue me at all. If you are getting paid to play, it's one thing. But unless there is monetary or some other incentive....

[destinytot]

There are some tunes that I really do not like. Giant Steps, Cherokee - come to mind.

I love listening to the Coltrane and Bird recordings, but - apart from some judicious chord substitution à la Dexter Gordon - the idea of playing Giant Steps on guitar didn't appeal to me until I heard a guitarist play it in a way that really speaks to me, like this does:

[christianm77]

I'll go back and read the other comments in a second, but I just wanted to say, that for something commonplace, I've always found rapid dominant cycles very difficult. I really do need to work on them more.

Dominant cycles are far more likely to turn up in non douche bag repetoire :-) (no offense, but many of us feel anyone who calls Conception or Countdown without giving time to prepare is in a sense a douchebag, on the other hand we earnestly prepare fearing the hour of the douchebag may be upon us. Possibly it is because my angry young man jam session days are behind me. Alternatively, it's like war. It won't be me who starts 26-2, but by god, I'll finish it.)

Even short cycles, such as that in Lulu's Back in Town (VI7 II7 V7 I) I find tricky, let alone the long cycle in Jordu. Maybe I'll practice Jordu tomorrow.

And then you have the cycle dominant in Rhythm Changes F#7 B7 E7 A7 D7 G7 C7 F7 Bb Bo7 CM7 F7 for the A....

[pushkar000]

There are some tunes that I really do not like. Giant Steps, Cherokee - come to mind. Even the recent tune of the month - All Of You - just doesn't intrigue me at all. If you are getting paid to play, it's one thing. But unless there is monetary or some other incentive....

Here is one of the best versions of Giant Steps I have heard.

[christianm77]

There are some tunes that I really do not like. Giant Steps, Cherokee - come to mind. Even the recent tune of the month - All Of You - just doesn't intrigue me at all. If you are getting paid to play, it's one thing. But unless there is monetary or some other incentive....

Giant Steps IMO is basically an etude with little other musical value beyond 'hey look at this!' - Coltrane did bigger and better things with his subsitutes - I like 26-2 for example.

All of You is a very pretty melody. The changes are pretty straightforward - a lot of minor to major things as we often get with Cole Porter. Cole Porter's songs are my favourites though.

I do like Cherokee, in part because it's actually pretty straightforward on guitar, at least at medium up tempos - slow harmonic changes, all stock progressions.

It's a big deal for horn players because of the key changes in bridge on the -gasp!- sharp side of the cycle. IRC Bird was particularly great at getting around it apparently because he made a point of practicing everything he learned in all 12 keys because no one told that he really didn't need to.

Also Cherokee was written by a chap from my hometown, Brighton, so I feel a degree of tribal solidarity.

[destinytot]

It won't be me who starts 26-2, but by god, I'll finish it.)

I really like Confirmation, so I'll definitely put studying that one on the To Do list.

[destinytot]

Here is one of the best versions of Giant Steps I have heard.

I like the pretty orchestration.

Have you heard Freddie on this? (Love Ralph Moore's tenor, too.)

[christianm77]

I would say that part of music is also sometimes laying low for another band member to get what he/she wants. I feel like if they are playing tunes you like, it should work both ways. I'm not a pro (so not a very knowledgeable opinion). But when I jam with friends, they sometimes want to call these bunk tunes like Confirmation up at some ridiculous(for me) tempo. I'd rather do something else than some technical bebop workout tune but since they played my earlier tune I guess I'll gladly hang with it.

I guess if there's money to be earned and reputation at stake...all the more reason to do it. That is, if you can play the tune but don't want to. If you can't play the tune - better to sit out.

I love playing bebop tunes, but I am a professional (in so much as I earn a living from jazz guitar) and I have to say I'm often a bit rusty at these things - most of my gigs are standards, stuff with singers, swing & gypsy jazz, and occasionally other people's originals or world music projects. I don't have a core regular bebop play, so things like obvous bop heads - Scrapple, Anthropology, Donna Lee and Confirmation say - do actually get a bit dusty - far more so than whan I was a part timer, in fact. Perhaps I didn't learn them right to start off with!

If I play a bop head on one of my trio gigs, it'll usually be something a little less stock - I like Dewey Square, Airmail Special and Dexterity, for example, - or one of my own bop heads. So yeah, I kind of know what you mean.

I don't mind blowing the cobwebs off and making mistakes though, but I always feel that you should try and make music with the people you are playing with - and I find it's usually better music to play something everyone knows well (unless you are all up for pushing the envelope a little for fun, not always the best move on a gig....)

[pushkar000]

I like the pretty orchestration.

Have you heard Freddie on this? (Love Ralph Moore's tenor, too.)

Wow this is great, thanks!
I have not heard of Ralph Moore - he is a great player.

[christianm77]

I like the pretty orchestration.

Have you heard Freddie on this? (Love Ralph Moore's tenor, too.)

Yes, this is a great fist of making a good *tune* out of Giant Steps. I should learn this head....

[christianm77]

I like this video - very beautiful lines I think on GS. Great lesson BTW....

[mr. beaumont]

Giant Steps IMO is basically an etude with little other musical value beyond 'hey look at this!' -

I said the same thing til I learned it.

its a catchy tune, and its fun. I don't get the "exercisy" comments at all.

[christianm77]

Well I shall beg to differ. I have ex-flamates who find this hilarious (me running GS was a running joke at one point - I think I spent a few years running it ad nauseum) but I think I am heartily sick of it. (Not to mention my flatmates haha.)

[pushkar000]

I love playing bebop tunes, but I am a professional (in so much as I earn a living from jazz guitar) and I have to say I'm often a bit rusty at these things - most of my gigs are standards, stuff with singers, swing & gypsy jazz, and occasionally other people's originals or world music projects. I don't have a core regular bebop play, so things like obvous bop heads - Scrapple, Anthropology, Donna Lee and Confirmation say - do actually get a bit dusty - far more so than whan I was a part timer, in fact. Perhaps I didn't learn the right to start off with!

If I play a bop head on one of my trio gigs, it'll usually be something a little less stock - I like Dewey Square, Airmail Special and Dexterity, for example, - or one of my own bop heads. So yeah, I kind of know what you mean.

I don't mind blowing the cobwebs off and making mistakes though, but I always feel that you should try and make music with the people you are playing with - and I find it's usually better music to play something everyone knows well (unless you are all up for pushing the envelope a little for fun, not always the best move on a gig....)

I am a student(pretty far from being a pro!), and for me and the guys I play with...frankly(in my opinion) calling some fast bop tune is basically a muscle thing or a technical thing which I don't dig. I would prefer making music instead of having to prove my chops(or lack thereof) to some other fellow who is in turn trying to prove his chops(or lack thereof!) to me.
It boils down to I(and generally everyone I play with) can't really do much more than run arps or licks over some of these tunes. Since we're all sounding pretty mechanical and hence on the same playing field, I guess its alright for us to play the tune, but its like everybody is a backing track for the soloist to practice on - what fun is that?

But I generally try to accept and and am glad to hang with whatever other cats want to play (as long as I can make it through acceptably enough), playing with other people is all about give and take.

I also enjoy the less stock heads more. I am slowly trying to get exposed to more bebop so I can kind of get a deeper understanding of the whole thing. I will check out the tunes you mentioned.

[christianm77]

I am a student(pretty far from being a pro!), and for me and the guys I play with...frankly(in my opinion) calling some fast bop tune is basically a muscle thing or a technical thing which I don't dig. I would prefer making music instead of having to prove my chops(or lack thereof) to some other fellow who is in turn trying to prove his chops(or lack thereof!) to me.
It boils down to I(and generally everyone I play with) can't really do much more than run arps or licks over some of these tunes. Since we're all sounding pretty mechanical and hence on the same playing field, I guess its alright for us to play the tune, but its like everybody is a backing track for the soloist to practice on - what fun is that?

But I generally try to accept and and am glad to hang with whatever other cats want to play (as long as I can make it through acceptably enough), playing with other people is all about give and take.

I also enjoy the less stock heads more. I am slowly trying to get exposed to more bebop so I can kind of get a deeper understanding of the whole thing. I will check out the tunes you mentioned.

Oh man, bebop. Every year I go 'I'll study something more contemporary' and get sucked back into bop right away. For me, I would like to truly understand and hear every head I learn in all 12 keys, the true phrasing of the rhythm and the tonal function of every line. This I think would be a strong basic grounding in the music.

I've made a lot of progress with this, but my ability to play head x in all 12 at tempo on the gig is not yet there. But it's fun working on it. But my ability to regurgitate Donna Lee by rote tends to get less attention. Hopefully it'll all be worth it in the long run :-)

Some cats get this down in their teens :-)

Just going through the Barry Harris videos makes me realise how deep it goes.

BTW: If you want a list of bebop tunes, I can PM you the list I've been working through over the last year or three. I think learning as many heads as you can by ear is something I should have done ages ago. There are also mistakes in some published sources that are interesting when you spot them.

If you have any familiarity with swing repertoire, many if not most bop tunes are based on earlier tunes, not all of them well known to modern players.