How do i develope speed

[guitarplayer007]

Are there any books i should get to really develope my speed for soloing and chord playing. I feel i'm lacking in the speed department. My speed is'nt awful but not what it should be for jazz.
thanks
Ken

[Gramps]

Do you practice with a metronome?

[guitarplayer007]

At times yes, but i want some drills for developing speed or books. I have a book on sweeping picking. But looking some stright forward drills for speed
thx
Ken

[derek]

Ken,

Imo, speed in jazz is different than speed in rock. In rock, you are often playing some repetitive patterns that really are'nt very musical, but are just flash for the sake of flash if you know what I mean.

Van Halen's stuff for instance. He would throw very fast runs in between more tasteful uses of triads and other single line stuff. In jazz, you want to be able to improvise using speed as one of many tools.

I just think these are two very different things. One is not improvisation imo, but just regurgitating licks that you worked on until you got them up to speed. In jazz, my goal is to play anything I can think of, fast or slow, or in between. Very different skill set.

I am not a terribly fast player either, but I find that in addition to the strength and dexterity exercises I do daily, I just mess with dynamics frequently. I play fast a bit, and then slow, mix it up.

I think it comes from just a lot of playing. You can develop speed licks for jazz, but I don't think it is the same thing as improvisation. Again, this is just my opinion, others may differ. Dunno if I made a clear distinction.

[mr. beaumont]

i think the best path to speed is to practice just the opposite: slow and precise. playing things slow and "perfect" builds muscle memory, which in turn makes it easier to "turn it up a notch." practice slow and precise and increase speed (via metronome or drum track) over time.

[Gramps]

I agree with mr. beaumont.

That was my thinking when I asked if you use a metronome. I've spent time practicing scales to get aquainted with shapes and trying to make my fingers stretch but I've found that my most effective drills and exercises are made of actual phrases that I'm having trouble with. I especially include the phrase prior to the one in question since the problem is almost alway in the transition between the two. I start very slow, trying to pull as much tone from every note as possible then start clicking the metronome up 5 bps at a time until I start feeling tense. Then I take a break and shake the tension off. After a few days of doing this the muscle memory takes over and every so often I through caution to the wind and try to play the phrase faster than normal but if I can't play it slow with good tone I know I can't play it fast.

I also agree with Derek that speed isn't the most important aspect of playing. Listen to Dizzy and Miles. It always seemed to me that Dizzy could play lots faster than Miles but neither of them had any trouble comunicating musical ideas.

If you can't play fast, play smart. The speed will come in time.

[John Curran]

Have to agree with Gramps and Mr B. I was taught as a young trumpet player, it's not how many times you play a piece, it's how many times you play it correctly.

Also efficiency of motion in your tecnique is important, as well as playing with a light touch when it comes to speed. You might do better with a good teacher than a book when it comes to these types of technical issues. One lesson with an accomplished teacher can often give you months of stuff to work on.

Best regards

John

[John Curran]

Originally Posted by Gramps

Listen to Dizzy and Miles. It always seemed to me that Dizzy could play lots faster than Miles but neither of them had any trouble comunicating musical ideas.

This is largely an illusion. I have a recording of Miles playing with Bird when Miles first broke onto the scene, Miles was whipping the notes out as fast as Charlie Parker, Miles was 19.

I think Miles deliberately chose to say more with fewer notes as his career progressed.

John

[Gramps]

John,

That doesn't supprise me. I do love the way Miles threads a seemingly simple line through changes.

Speed is cool and catches peoples attention but groove and playing in the pocket sound good at any speed.

[John Curran]

Originally Posted by Gramps

Speed is cool and catches peoples attention but groove and playing in the pocket sound good at any speed.

Amen Gramps.

John

[wizard3739]

"If you can't play fast, play smart. The speed will come in time." Absolutely right! Play as often as possible and emphasize clarity during your practise sessions. Speed is a natural bi-product of lots of practise. ALWAYS practise with a metronome or a play-a-long device and do NOT play straight scales. musically BORING!! Break up your scale practise with rhythmic motifs, arpeggios and intervals.

[guitarplayer007]

I need some patterns to practice ..any books or ideas
thx
Ken

[derek]

If this is the way you want to go, pick up a book of jazz licks. There are a number of them out there. Wolf Marshall, Jody Fisher, Cory Christiansen's in the style of series, Les Wise, etc.

For a more serious study, check out Tony DeCaprio's Gateway to Improvisation. I study with Tony online, and he has an interesting approach. He breaks things down into 4 note "units", with focus notes that help you link various units.

[Chrizzia]

Originally Posted by derek

Ken,

Imo, speed in jazz is different than speed in rock. In rock, you are often playing some repetitive patterns that really are'nt very musical, but are just flash for the sake of flash if you know what I mean.

Van Halen's stuff for instance. He would throw very fast runs in between more tasteful uses of triads and other single line stuff. In jazz, you want to be able to improvise using speed as one of many tools.

I just think these are two very different things. One is not improvisation imo, but just regurgitating licks that you worked on until you got them up to speed. In jazz, my goal is to play anything I can think of, fast or slow, or in between. Very different skill set.

I am not a terribly fast player either, but I find that in addition to the strength and dexterity exercises I do daily, I just mess with dynamics frequently. I play fast a bit, and then slow, mix it up.

I think it comes from just a lot of playing. You can develop speed licks for jazz, but I don't think it is the same thing as improvisation. Again, this is just my opinion, others may differ. Dunno if I made a clear distinction.

I am not agreeing about the "rock stuff".
I think that jazz-players tend to decline rock-musicians, which I do not think is fair. Look at a guy like Guthrie Govan or Steve Morse.
They are just as musical as Miles was. Different genre, but not more " flash for flash´s sake" than a lot of jazz-players.
Actually I think that jazz musicians tend to just drop notes and play fast runs without the melody, but the theory and chords in mind.¨

I don´t want to bitch about jazz or rock musicians, I just think that jazz-players sometimes have an arrogant approach to rock-music( musicians).
Again, sorry

[John Curran]

Originally Posted by Chrizzia

I am not agreeing about the "rock stuff".
I think that jazz-players tend to decline rock-musicians, which I do not think is fair. Look at a guy like Guthrie Govan or Steve Morse.
They are just as musical as Miles was. Different genre, but not more " flash for flash´s sake" than a lot of jazz-players.
Actually I think that jazz musicians tend to just drop notes and play fast runs without the melody, but the theory and chords in mind.¨

I don´t want to bitch about jazz or rock musicians, I just think that jazz-players sometimes have an arrogant approach to rock-music( musicians).
Again, sorry

Rock is not nearly as complex or difficult to master as jazz. It is a limited art form. To illustrate my point, try laying some b9ths or b13ths down when rehearsing with a rock band and see what kind of dirty looks you get. It is by and large built on simple pentatonic scales and chords with no tensions (Hendrix did manage to sneak in some #9ths). Not the type of approach that is going to impress jazz players. Not that there's anything wrong with that, rock is fine for what it is ( I know it's only rock&roll...) but it ain't nothin' compared to jazz.

Additionally when you say "jazz musicians tend to just drop notes and play fast runs without the melody", I think you're missing the point of jazz. It's about improvisation. It's about each individual players take on the chord or melodic structure of the tune being played. This is why jazz players tend to re-record the same old standards, because it's not about the tune, it's about the interpretation of the tune.

Just my 2 cents

John

[fingerpicker]

Chrizzia, I think you make a valid point. I would further challenge jazz players to play their favorite tunes in a rock format, or rockers to play in a classical format, or classical players to do some bluegrass, etc.

I get a big kick out of playing AC/DC tunes as a baroque classical guitar solos, or Tequila Sunrise with a bossa nova beat and altered chords.

I think if we would spend a little time walking in different shoes, we might go places we never expected to find. But that's just one person's opinion.

[Gramps]

Rock/Jazz/Classical/Bluegrass..........

These kinds of comparisons are a non-starter.

All are only as good as the person playing them.

[derek]

I wasn't bad mouthing rock music or players for that matter. I still play rock weekly. However, statements about top level rock players (name them) being equal or on par with top level jazz players is uninformed imo.

I love the guys you mentioned, and they have world class chops, but rock music is not nearly as harmonically complex compared to jazz, and I am sure Steve would be the first to tell you that.

i agree, plenty of jazz guys play fast just to play fast. It certainly isn't only found in the realm of rock. However, the orginal question was about deveoping speed, and typically I think of fast being the MO of rock/metal guys. Much of what they are doing isn't very musical when you slow it down, but when sped up, sounds cool.

It does take a different level of chops to play jazz fast. As John pointed out, jazz is mostly about improvisation, beat, song structure, chords, etc. Rock/country/blues saves its improvisation for the solo, which is very different.

A good example would be Alex Skolnik. He used to front the metal band Testament. When the metal thing died in the early 90's, he went back to school in NYC and got a jazz performance degree.

He now fronts the Alex Skolnik Trio. Their first couple of albums were taking metal anthems and running them thru the jazzinator. Cool stuff if you haven't heard him. I have read two or three interviews in GP, and the now defunct Guitar One with him, and he talked about the differences and what kind of stuff he had to get together to play jazz.

So I just want to restate that I am not talking badly about rock at all. I have played it for almost 30 years, and continue to play it. In every genre, you will find guys who can crossover and play jazz. Danny Gatton -country/jazz, Robben Ford- Blues/jazz, Alex Skolnik-metal/jazz, etc. I am sure others can think of players who do both well.

[mr. beaumont]

and i play rock weakly. seriously, i'm a much better jazz player than a rock player...

it is it's own art form, and i'm reminded of it each week as i teach my students...sometimes we'll be dissecting a certain tune, looking at techniques, and i'll have to say, "dang, this guys good."

[Michael E. Burgess]

I have always been a blues and rockabilly, country-rock, and rock guitarist. I started playing (or attempting to play) jazz about a year and a half ago. The speed in jazz, as has been mentioned, is very different from the speed of rock or any other style, I think. Note and chord accuracy is much more important in jazz, for example.

However, as I keep stumbling over my own fingers when trying to play speed in jazz, one of the things I have learned (or more correctly re-learned) to do is go back to the basics of forming the proper chords and holding them until all the notes required of the chord have been played before moving my fingers again. Learn it slow, increase speed with regular, dedicated practice, and with improv and dedication (both) the speed comes. This sounds simplistic and sophomoric to many of you I know, but understand that having always been a "fingerer" as in rockabilly and some of the rockier country music, moving my fingers around so much in playing each note (a la Don Felder) was an old habit that was hard for me to break.

I have another trick I do, though, that I picked up from plaing the blues. It's the way I hold my pick. Try this, it makes things go faster for me. The pick is typicaly a wedge- or delta-shaped thing with two rounded edges (typically) and it usually has a point on the long end. Most musicians use the point of the pick for the particular sound of strength, etc.

I turn the pick around 180 degrees so that the point is facing the palm of my hand and off the side of my index finger I have about 1/4 of the rounded upper left wing of the pick sticking out. I pick with that. It creates much less drag, makes a sharp striking pluck, and requires SO much less motion of the hand that it's practically ergonomical. Additionally it lets me follow-through a bit more with my hand if I need to. But mostly it reduces the length of travel it takes to pluck the string, and you recover more quickly, ready for the next note.

Try it, it really works for me.

[Dennoow]

I always use Frank Gambale's 'Chop Builder' CD. It goes trough all kinds of exercies, starting with a warm-up, alternate picking triplets then alternate picking 8th notes and then combining them. Futher it contains a (rather boring) scale work-out. Further intervals, string skipping, sweep picking and a (short) Legato section are in the exercise. Next to that I use Guthrie Govan's 'Creative guitar part 2' exercises. The first 6 chapters contain pretty much every technique you'll ever use while soloing (alternate picking, sweep picking, Legato, Tapping, Double handed tapping (with 8 fingers, you'll probably rarely use that) and Pick& Fingers). All in all it takes me 3 hours a week and I'm pretty happy with my chops. What else works great is taking licks from your favourite players and try to play them. You can add those to your exercises, for instance, if I want to practise sweep picking I most of the time add some exercises from Jason Becker (the altitudes sweep picking section is a great work-out) or indeed Frank Gambale (a little more comprehensable for jazz/fusion since he found a way to sweep pretty much everything, including 7th arpeggios). Alternate Picking I'd do 'Fatal tragedy' solo by John petrucci in Dream theater, etc. Just play what you like as clean as possible and slowly build up speed, you'll get there!

[DMatthewsBand07]

Originally Posted by fingerpicker

I get a big kick out of playing AC/DC tunes as a baroque classical guitar solos, or Tequila Sunrise with a bossa nova beat and altered chords.

ha... I like it. I'm definitely still into the rock and blues stuff, classical too.

anyway back to the speed thing. Out of all the scales and arpeggios you practice, spend some time with a metronome, playing swing eighths. A LOT of jazz soloing is based on eighth note runs. Like I've noticed a bunch of people in this discussion say... speed's one thing, but if you can keep it swinging when the tempo starts getting up there then you're in good shape. Just keep it swingin'. You don't see people getting up and dancing to Yngwie Malmsteen and all those neo-classical shredders do you?

[neurodoc18]

Originally Posted by John Curran

Rock is not nearly as complex or difficult to master as jazz. It is a limited art form. To illustrate my point, try laying some b9ths or b13ths down when rehearsing with a rock band and see what kind of dirty looks you get. It is by and large built on simple pentatonic scales and chords with no tensions (Hendrix did manage to sneak in some #9ths). Not the type of approach that is going to impress jazz players. Not that there's anything wrong with that, rock is fine for what it is ( I know it's only rock&roll...) but it ain't nothin' compared to jazz.

Additionally when you say "jazz musicians tend to just drop notes and play fast runs without the melody", I think you're missing the point of jazz. It's about improvisation. It's about each individual players take on the chord or melodic structure of the tune being played. This is why jazz players tend to re-record the same old standards, because it's not about the tune, it's about the interpretation of the tune.

Just my 2 cents

John

Actually, just try playing blues with "traditional" blues types using all kinds of extensions, alterations and substitutions. That really gets cross-eyed looks.

David

[Goofsus4]

Hmmm, I struggle with developing speed myself. I used to believe it wasn't that important - that is was more important to be musical and have good phrasing. I still believe that. But, I also have come to realize that "bursty" speed is critical. Personally, I get bored with just endless speed playing, but bursts of speed within a line can really make it sizzle. I've been listening to some Joe Pass stuff recently and it made me realize just how important tasteful use of speed can be. There's just no substitute for continued practice and patience. The speed comes over time - years not months. The good thing is that you don't need speed to be musical, you just won't be musical in the same way as people with speed. You'll be more limited, that's all.

One thing I found, though, that helped me with chordal speed/double stops, etc., though, is the use of barring and finger picking. Unless I am playing a lot of open strings, I find that it helps my speed with chord fragments if I can figure out a way to finger something so I can just slap my fingers down across a few strings, then just pick the strings I want to sound. This might be considered sloppy playing, but if I can figure out a way to bar something, it helps. I haven't seen any real downside so far.

[John Curran]

Originally Posted by neurodoc18

Actually, just try playing blues with "traditional" blues types using all kinds of extensions, alterations and substitutions. That really gets cross-eyed looks.

David

LOL. Yeah, maybe even roughed up. Got to be careful what you play in blues clubs.

john

[m78w]

One thing to work on when trying to build your speed is to learn licks and phrases, or melodies instead of just scales and arpeggios. Some of the best, and fastest, players I've worked with have always told me they practice ii-V or other licks when working on speed, or they learn Bebop melodies, like Donna Lee, Confirmation etc. That way you are either learning vocabulary or tunes at the same time as working on speed. And it's much more practical, when you're soloing or doing a gig you won't be running scales/arps, but chances are you'll be running changes or playing melodies. So it's like killing two birds with one stone.

My favorite musical analogy comes from a lesson I had with Roddy Ellias on getting faster.

He said:

"Always practice REALLY slow. Practice so slow that you can concentrate on every muscle movement in both hands. Learn to feel what the perfect tone not only sounds like but FEELS like. Try playing Donna Lee at 30 or 40, try doing it half that speed. Being able to play slow is the key to playing fast.

Take babies for instance. You watch a baby work for months on learning the mechanics of crawling and then after much trial and error they learn how to walk. But have you ever seen a baby practice running? No, they just work slowly perfecting the mechanics of walking and then one day they just run!"

MW

[BaltimoreJazz]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer007

Are there any books i should get to really develope my speed for soloing and chord playing. I feel i'm lacking in the speed department. My speed is'nt awful but not what it should be for jazz.
thanks
Ken

1. Practice with a metronome. It's the only way to truly measure progress. For example, set the metronome to 100 beats per minute (or a speed that is comfortable to you). Start by playing a scale, any scale, with quarter notes from the low E to the high E. Play 3 notes per string and alternate your picking all the way. Then progress to eigth notes, sixteenth and so on. Also, I don't know if you play sitting down, standing up or a combination of the two. But don't forget to practice standing up.

2. Jazz players could definately benefit from listening to the Rock guys. Paul Gilbert is one of the best in the business. If you google his name, you will find plenty of his lessons online. Mainly on YouTube. Yes, the exercises are repetitive, boring and non-musical. He'll even tell you that. But the idea is to build your muscles.

3. Play all the time! I'm lucky because my wife doesn't mind me noodling on the guitar while we're watching TV.

4. Always warm up. Never just start playing as fast as you can. I have a few friends that have tendonites and it sucks. If you've ever lifted weights, I'm sure you started with lighter weight and worked you way up.

5. Stretching helps as well. John Petrucci gives some good stretching exercises on his video. (Another Rock Guy!)

Hope that helps.

[bornfedslaughter]

Funny how you talking down on rock guitar players, when if you go look at the rollin stone top 100 musicians they are mostly all rock/blues guitarists.

[Dennoow]

Paul Gilbert is very technical but I'm mostly impressed by his picking technique, which is exceptional, likewise with John Petrucci btw. I'd say Guthrie Govan is a bit better in that respect, he's a bit more complete and has sme youtube lessons on alternate picking, sweep picking, legato and tapping. It's not all you need to know, his books have way more exercises. Vinnie Moore and Greg Howe are also a bit more complete techniquewise. If you do listen to more experts on particular areas I'd say :

- Alternate picking: Paul Gilbert, John Petrucci, John Mclaughlin, Al Di Meola.
- Legato/tapping: Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Allan Holdsworth, Greg Howe, Richie Kotzen.
- Sweep picking: Frank Gambale, Yngwie Malmsteen, Jason Becker.
- Fingerstyle: Joe Pass, Tuck Andress. (does anyone know more?)

Also there are some files out on the internet called "shawn baxter's guitar gym". It's a bit like Guthrie Govan's technique book 2, advanced techniques. It covers pretty much every technique there is, but it hs a little more emphasis on the sweep picking than Guthrie's books, plus a few more legato exercises. Legato excersises never hurt since that's the hardest technique to develop IMO. A little warning however; Baxter is not an alternate picker. He solves pretty much anything with sweep picking so you might want to adjust his exercises a bit to get some string crossing going with your pick.

[derek]

Originally Posted by bornfedslaughter

Funny how you talking down on rock guitar players, when if you go look at the rollin stone top 100 musicians they are mostly all rock/blues guitarists.

I know I am not who you were refering to, but the Rolling Stone top 100 is a popularity contest. Rock guys can be really good at their thing, but it is a fairly small box compared to a competent jazz guy. Me, I am trying to be both.