Do you really know your arpeggios ? Here's a test !

[henryrobinett]

and then shift positions for 3-octave exercises?

do you use the same patterns for interval exercises?

I don't really do three octave exercises. Same patterns for interval exercises. Same for everything. Chords too. They all come from the same source: the scale patterns. And they have to fit as one to the scale patterns. Otherwise its kind of dumb, from my way of looking at it.

[Patrick2]

Ah. Ok. For myself I strongly disagree with the Leavitt method regarding the 2nd finger never moving out of position. Maybe that's why you don't see to many players burning with that approach. As I said earlier, I think its more tailor made for reading. But the 2nd finger is prime for being able to move. You can develop that stretch in between the 1st and 2nd finger. For example, if you're playing C-D-E on the 1st string, I play it with my 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers. The tendon is strong between the 1st and 2nd fingers. It's weak between the 3rd and 4th. I will never, ever play it 1-3-4. This is my experience anyway. I've seen injuries from students who put too much stress by stretching between the 3rd and 4th. I NEVER do that.

Also look at it this way. When you stretch between the 1-2 fingers the hand opens up. If you stretch between the 3-4 the hand contracts.

Here's a quick video of Bob Ferry . . the guy I studied with for a while, who introduced me to the Leavitt system. He seems to burn pretty damned good. Check out his 4th finger stretches. I guess it's just different strokes . . different folks.

http://www.bobferrymusic.com/ferryall.wmv

[Reg]

Sorry to jump in late... but I do use a similar system to Leavitts... but basically any fingering is just a starting reference.

I can play basically any fingering, and within a few seconds, once I understand what the fingering is based on, the actual understanding of how and why I would use it, what is the reason behind why I would choose a fingering. Anyway, their all just fingerings, some just make more sense for different sounds or articulations.

Eventually like I always say... the entire fretboard just becomes one big fingering and you have different ways to finger phrases to get the sound and articulations you want... or in my case, notated out. same thing.

The real difficulty sounds like for many of you it's not the fingerings that get in the way... it's the actual notes and their organization. You really can't play what you don't hear or understand, at least at faster tempos and then be able to repeat what you hear in different situations etc... personally... memorization is not the key.

If you have always had trouble playing a faster tempos... there is a reason. You probably don't know or can't realize what you want to play, fingerings can get in the way... but only at fairly up tempos.

This conversations is for advanced players... right. all fingering are just a path to becoming aware of what you can play on your guitar. The fingering are just an exercise... either to open your ears to what's possible, or teach your hands to play what you hear... generally both.

You want to really get your act together... play all the games with octaves. And don't just work on everything slow and perfect... push your self. Playing slow doesn't get your speed up...

I have tonight off... was in studio all day, I'll post something...

[Nabil B]

Some very interesting discussion here ! That made me think about how I play : most of the time I get around the neck in a vertical fashion, only moving horizontally when I run out of space. This can lead to awkward situations where I have to play the rest of my line on a single string ( the high or low E). On the other hand, oftenwise moving horizontally is not necessary. I've heard some players say (henry maybe ?) that lines feel and sound more natural when played in an horizontal fashion. And I do see most (if not all) great jazz guitarist play that way. That is really intriguing to me, who's from the "only change your hand position if there is no other choice" school, and I'd really like to know more on the subject, so I can change my habits and understand the benefits I would get from that.

[destinytot]

The fingering are just an exercise... either to open your ears to what's possible, or teach your hands to play what you hear... generally both.

This really resonates - thank you!

I'm not professional, but I work hard to be able to pursue music. I'm an experienced player, but not a very confident one, and my own (foolish) curiosity could have led me astray (or derailed me).

Music, though wrought from mechanical and mathematical forms, is about Beauty. That's subjective - but that's the point. Its definition, and the means by which to overcome any obstacles in its pursuit, need to come from me.

[MarkRhodes]

I hear you. I did it by just flat out learning the fretboard. There's your maximal freedom.

I'm not so sure about this. Take say, Herb Ellis (one of my favorites): he certainly knew his fretboard but he didn't practice scales in all positions and actually discouraged students from doing that. He played out of simple chord shapes. That's how he got around. There are other ways to do it----you have yours, obviously, and you get around the guitar better than most---and Pat Martino has his and George Benson has his.

Yesterday I thought about the old expression, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." True. But there's no advantage to skinning a cat six different ways when one will do. It might even make a mess of things. I think many of us---not you; you've got your stuff straight---came up learning a bit of this and that from here and there and it's not integrated well. I think lots of approaches can work but that being confused while trying to play gums up the best works.

So for me, I'm trying to integrate what I know from "all the methods I've loved before (that traveled in and out my door....)", which is no small task.

[henryrobinett]

Mark - that's why I said "I did it by just flat out learning the fretboard." I never said it MUST be done this way by everyone.

For ME and the way I learn and the way I wanted to play, I needed to learn the fretboard comprehensively, using one system that relates to each other. A framework where arpeggios and chords all derived from, like the piano. One mind. I never found a system like that. I'm sure there were. I just designed my own. And because it was MINE it probably stuck more.

For ME working out of boxes or gripes or chord shapes never made sense. Not for me. For ME the fretboard was a box and chords were small snapshots. It was important to me, as an improvisor, that no matter where my hand landed I knew where I was and what to do, regardless of chord changes. That I could go from one chord to any other chord without having to move my hand. That I knew BMaj+5 to F7+11b9 anywhere on the neck NOT BASED ON CHORD SHAPES. For ME playing arpeggios has nothing to do with guitar chord shapes. Guitar chord shapes are always a compromise of voicing. Open voicing because you just can't play closed voicings very well.

I always liked Ellis as well. But I never wanted to play like him. Even if I did I never ever wanted to copy anyone or their approach. I did it by learning the hell out of the fretboard, and understanding the music the best I could. But I personally was never interested in sounding like or imitating any other guitar player. To ME jazz and any art is about playing who YOU are. So through thick and thin it was a journey to find myself on the fretboard. NOT someone else. That's just me. But sometimes I feel I have to explain myself because it seems as though it's a novel concept. I'm sure this came from Mingus who always pounded this point home. "Play your own shit even if it stinks."

[Endorphins]

something I need to work on.

[MarkRhodes]

To ME jazz and any art is about playing who YOU are. So through thick and thin it was a journey to find myself on the fretboard. NOT someone else. That's just me. But sometimes I feel I have to explain myself because it seems as though it's a novel concept. I'm sure this came from Mingus who always pounded this point home. "Play your own shit even if it stinks."

To me, this is like a writer saying "I don't type like other people, I found my own way to type." Well, that's fine. But I see it as reinventing a wheel that's rolling just fine. In either case, what makes a writer is how he writes, not how he types. And fingering systems are like typing. If you wanna do it your own way, that is your choice, but I should think you would sometimes ask yourself, "Why is this an issue of identity for me? Why is how I finger a scale who I am?"

I'm no less "me" for typing the way I learned it in high school. You're no more "you" for coming up with your own fingerings. You can't escape you, no matter what you do! It's the human condition.


I love the Mingus quote, "play your own shit even if it stinks," but I take that to refer to material, not fingerings.

[henryrobinett]

To me, this is like a writer saying "I don't type like other people, I found my own way to type." Well, that's fine. But I see it as reinventing a wheel that's rolling just fine. In either case, what makes a writer is how he writes, not how he types. And fingering systems are like typing. If you wanna do it your own way, that is your choice, but I should think you would sometimes ask yourself, "Why is this an issue of identity for me? Why is how I finger a scale who I am?"

I'm no less "me" for typing the way I learned it in high school. You're no more "you" for coming up with your own fingerings. You can't escape you, no matter what you do! It's the human condition.


I love the Mingus quote, "play your own shit even if it stinks," but I take that to refer to material, not fingerings.

No, much different than how one types. The fretboard forms the primary viewpoint of the guitar. It's how ones thoughts are formed. It's be more like how one uses the alphabet and definitions of words themselves. It's a basic method. Keep in mind when I put this together there were very few wheels in published or taught forms. No one I knew was doing this. But they were on other instruments. This was long before GIT or CST or before the Leavitt books. At least before I ever heard of them.

Fingerings are basic. I first learned from a great guitar teacher who "fretted" over fingerings. He taught classical pieces - Bach, Pagganni for electric guitar. He was always changing an perfecting the fingerings and explain why. So that's where I started. I'm not talking about fingerings. I'm talking about the comprehensive fretboard regardless of fingering, except for the stretch between the 1st and 2nd finger.

[ecj]

Ah. Ok. For myself I strongly disagree with the Leavitt method regarding the 2nd finger never moving out of position. Maybe that's why you don't see to many players burning with that approach. As I said earlier, I think its more tailor made for reading. But the 2nd finger is prime for being able to move. You can develop that stretch in between the 1st and 2nd finger. For example, if you're playing C-D-E on the 1st string, I play it with my 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers. The tendon is strong between the 1st and 2nd fingers. It's weak between the 3rd and 4th. I will never, ever play it 1-3-4. This is my experience anyway. I've seen injuries from students who put too much stress by stretching between the 3rd and 4th. I NEVER do that.

Also look at it this way. When you stretch between the 1-2 fingers the hand opens up. If you stretch between the 3-4 the hand contracts.

This has been my thought about Leavitt. I hate the positions that require the 3-4 stretch. Most of those are the "in betweeners" that fall in positions not covered by the CAGED system. I've been practicing them for a while, but they don't really seem to be opening up for me.

[GuyBoden]

No, much different than how one types. The fretboard forms the primary viewpoint of the guitar. It's how ones thoughts are formed. It's be more like how one uses the alphabet and definitions of words themselves. It's a basic method. Keep in mind when I put this together there were very few wheels in published or taught forms. No one I knew was doing this. But they were on other instruments. This was long before GIT or CST or before the Leavitt books. At least before I ever heard of them.

Fingerings are basic. I first learned from a great guitar teacher who "fretted" over fingerings. He taught classical pieces - Bach, Pagganni for electric guitar. He was always changing an perfecting the fingerings and explain why. So that's where I started. I'm not talking about fingerings. I'm talking about the comprehensive fretboard regardless of fingering, except for the stretch between the 1st and 2nd finger.

What system do you use?

Is it based on the 3 notes per string method?

[henryrobinett]

Mark - You aren't understanding what I'm saying if you think I'm talking about fingering. I wish you'd go back and re-read what I've written. Or maybe I was very unclear.

[henryrobinett]

What system do you use?

Is it based on the 3 notes per string method?

Hm. Yes. But other than 3 notes per string I don't know what method you're referring to.

[GuyBoden]

These 3 notes per string (3NPS):



I refer to them as a "Method" of fretboard organistaion.

[henryrobinett]

This has been my thought about Leavitt. I hate the positions that require the 3-4 stretch. Most of those are the "in betweeners" that fall in positions not covered by the CAGED system. I've been practicing them for a while, but they don't really seem to be opening up for me.

I also never subscribed to the CAGED system. I do something like that regarding chord voicings. There are 5 basic zones. I had a student tell me it's like the CAGED. Duh. But the scales have two other zones that CAGED leaves out.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah, yeah. But the METHOD I use only BEGINS there. That's what I said "Hm."

[GuyBoden]

But, I've heard some players state that the CAGED system is easier for playing Bebop than 3NPS.

Yeah, yeah. But the METHOD I use only BEGINS there. That's what I said "Hm."

Yes I agree, learning the 7 3NPS patterns in all keys is only the beginning of the long adventure.

[destinytot]

The typing analogy is an interesting one.

What is a 'hunter and pecker', a two-finger typist, to do among quick brown foxes jumping over lazy dogs?

"The player builds his confidence by working out his problems himself. Don't worry if you have limitations. The method and technique that identify me - playing with my thumb and the use of octaves - were born out of limitations. We all have them and must accept and build something meaningful out of them. What I do might not be right technically, but the music comes out all the same. Why? Because I had to play and tell my story."
(John Leslie "Wes" Montgomery)

[GuyBoden]

For the naysayers. Have you spent much time getting good at the connecting game?

Just try the exercise. If you find it hard to do over something like Joy Spring then keep at it. I'm saying "if it's hard" because I really think this is for the beginners and intermediate players. Maybe not so beneficial for the advanced players, I wouldn't know.

I find that after working through the exercise over a tune and then after taking the hand cuffs off... Adding space, rhythmic variation, chromatics, licks etc.

I find that it really improves my improv., improv suddenly feels much easier. And I really know the tune. And it doesn't take too long to notice improvements.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

Frank, the exercises using the Melodic minor modes are the best examples of using Melodic minor scales I've seen in a book.

[docbop]

To me its all about getting beyond any system. The systems get your started like training wheels, with training wheels you keep raising them so you're going more and more on your own. Your fingerboard knowledge increases, you start moving between finger patterns without even thinking about it, you start seeing/know where the chord tones and extended notes are. You learn more and more ways to navigate thru changes. Study/learn others lines and eventually get to point to start letting go and hearing what comes out.

I know for me as time goes by I find I look at things in smaller and smaller pieces/patterns. That instead of a typical fingerpattern covering four-six fret from E to E, moving to how many ways can I finger a one octave scale. Doing scales on three strings, two strings, one string. For me working on scales on one and two strings opened up the fingerboard so most.

Guess you could say you start learning in big pieces/patterns and as your knowledge grows you start seeing everything you need from where ever your finger is on the fingerboard.

Disclaimer:
These Fretboard Zen moments brought to you from having to do so much boring cardio at the gym.

[henryrobinett]

Absolutely doc. What keeps me anchored is teaching this method as you've probably heard me say over and over, it's not about thinking. Fretboard becomes something you know and understand. The way I came to know and understand it was to drill until it became second nature.

[GuyBoden]

To me its all about getting beyond any system. The systems get your started like training wheels, with training wheels you keep raising them so you're going more and more on your own.

Yeah I agree, I learned the basic fretboard patterns at college when I was a teenager, that's over 30 years ago, but I've continually updated them since. I see small patterns, that link to bigger patterns, that then make a whole fretboard. I think Ear training is more important, but knowing the fretboard is a basic skill, but it's easier to learn when you're younger.

[henryrobinett]

The way I think of it is the fretboard is in your mind. You have to know it so well you can just look at it in your mind, every nook and cranny. But it always does the mind good to refresh it. To go over it with your fingers, because that's what plays it on orders from the mind. Playing we tend to favor little areas of the neck over others. Little dark unknown, least trod areas of the fretboard we avoid. For me that's a no-no. So I go over the fretboard with scales and scale exercises at least a couple of times a week.

[docbop]

Yeah I agree, I learned the basic fretboard patterns at college when I was a teenager, that's over 30 years ago, but I've continually updated them since. I see small patterns, that link to bigger patterns, that then make a whole fretboard. I think Ear training is more important, but knowing the fretboard is a basic skill, but it's easier to learn when you're younger.

I agree ear training and learning fingerboard need to go together. I wish I had realized that earlier on, it all part of the ear-brain-hand connection that needs to be developed. I think its part of the issue with how people are taught/learn things as separate puzzle pieces instead realizing they are all interrelated. This thread started on arpeggio fingerings, but arpeggios are theory knowing how to spell the chords, ear training, fingerboard knowledge, improv, technique (both hands), and listening for how the masters used arpeggios. There are no small things we practice they are all part of the big picture.