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Agreed. The guitar is a unique instrument in that you could for all practical purposes learn to play from a completely geometric viewpoint, with no regard for notes of a scale, arpeggios, modes, or pretty much any of the trappings of conventional theory. If you can translate chord symbols to shapes and then have a system of corresponding scalar/arpeggiated shapes that sound good around those chord shapes, you could visualize the whole thing (tensions, resolutions, etc) in terms of relative geometric patterns. Of course on some level what you would end up doing would connect back to more conventional theory, but there is certainly a possibility to navigate the guitar purely based on concepts of fretboard positioning. Though perhaps more importantly, you would lose fluency in communicating with other musicians. Just interesting how that possibility is there with the guitar like no other instrument (other than cousin string instruments of course).
Originally Posted by Doublea A
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03-07-2017 08:21 PM
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I thought I'd replied this this earlier but anyway, sounds OK to me, gotta couple more choruses to go on C blues but I'm happy enough with the pace & enjoying everyones' posts. Keep on keepin' on... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Here is today's take of the first chorus. (I apologize for the false start.)
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Very nicely done, Mark.
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I can't believe how hard this was
Bars 1 -36 @ 104bpm
I had more flubs on this one than all my other ones combined today
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Glad to see I'm not the only one trailing Mark... Originally Posted by Doublea A
the trouble I have playing this is that I can't always 'hear' what he's doing rhythmically at the turnarounds - the accents don't always fall where I want them too. I loop those bits & play along until I get it in my head but it takes me a while.
I'm a chorus away from finishing so I'll try & get it sorted...
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I agree. There are sections where I feel off balance. Like I am going to fall off my stool. Originally Posted by dot75
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Couple of fluffs towards the end & my time's not great, I blame the 'rhythm' (Ha!) guitarist clunking away in my ear...glad I got to the end tho'
Blues In C - Video Dailymotion
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Well done !! Originally Posted by dot75
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Glad to see you're still in the game - may the craziness end..
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First 12 bars of Bounce Blues...
Bounce Blues 12 Bars - Video Dailymotion
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That sounded real good, good tone and good time. Originally Posted by dot75
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Time flies out the window about halfway through. Sorry about that. But I felt like I was falling behind and needed to record several things this morning. This was the third one.
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Good stuff - nice guitar too...I've started recording a backing track with herb in my headphones, then I play along with that...if it's out of time then it's clearly herbs fault...
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Hello All,
I am planning on starting up a Study Group in May 2017 based on Randy Vincent’s book “The Cellular Approach”. I figured that we could give everybody a month to check out the book and decide whether or not they would like to commit to the group. The book explores cellular improvisation. A cell is a four note group with at least 3 chord tones. It is meant to lead to building improvisations that are melodic and follow the chord changes logically.
The Introduction reads: “This book is a collection of things to practice on the guitar that will help to develop the vocabulary of jazz improvisation while simultaneously developing and maintaining single-note technique. . . . the focus will mainly be on “cellular” improvisation, which is using very short melodic cells strung together into longer lines. Once we get to the place where we are using strings of cells for “outside” and “free” playing we will move beyond the cellular concept and into some other approaches. I have included many lines and phrases transcribed from the recordings of several master guitarists to demonstrate the validity of the concepts behind the exercises given.”
There are 5 chapters in this book: Chapter 1 - Cycles and II-V Sequences (247 examples). Chapter 2 - Turnarounds (163 examples). Chapter 3 - Longer Progressions (192 examples). Chapter 4 Outside and Free Playing (113 examples). Chapter 5 - More Outside Lines - All Purpose Licks including Chromatic Intervals, Serial Tone Rows, and 23rd Chords (99 examples)
I have had this book on my shelf for the past 2 years but I have only played the first 5 pages. Maybe a group will help motivate me and others to incorporate this concept into my own playing.
The book does not come with a CD (at least my book didn’t). I use iRealPro for backing tracks.
- My plan right now is to learn 10 examples a month. Each example is only 2 to four bars long. I have completed the first 12 with minimal effort. I would estimate that this is a 1 to 2 hour commitment per month. We may want to change this depending on the pace maintained by the group once it gets going, plus at that rate it would take us 6 years and 9 months to complete the book.
- Discuss or post your performing of the examples.
- Discuss or post where to play the “Cells” on the neck of the guitar. Even though Randy does give some indication where he would like the cells to be played, as we know they are always alternative fingerings.
- Discuss or post the application of these “cells” into Jazz Standards. I think that this is the most vital part of the exercise. A concept is only a concept until it is made a reality (I just made that up. It is not a famous quote)
- At some point, (maybe at the conclusion) I would combine this with Randy’s other famous book “Line Games” and see how it relates to the playing of great guitarists like Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow, Pat Martino and Joe Pass
I will be posting this on several threads so I apologize if you seeing this more than once.
Let me know what you think.
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Made an adjustment to how my right over fits over the guitar and I think it will make a big, positive difference. But there's an adjustment period....
This is three takes, with several versions of the ending phrase. My pick position has to change a bit because my arm position has changed. Think this will make me much more consistent. Eventually...
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Stuck...I can't get the next 12 bars , especially can't play the triplets it starts with
1. using downstrokes (sounds better to me)
2. anywhere near up to speed
I'm going to lie down in a darkened room for a little while...
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It takes the time it takes. Try not to waste energy fretting about it. I often start things at 48 bpm on the metronome. Almost everything is playable at that tempo. If that's not slow enough, cut everything in half. (Play eighth notes as quarter notes, quarter notes as half notes, make each measure two measures. Whatever it takes. Then build from there.) Originally Posted by dot75
You can play. Never think you can't play. If you can't play THIS yet, well, that's not such a big deal. You can learn it just like you've learned a lot things you once couldn't play at all but can now play fluently.
(The above pep talk is one I've needed to hear a few hundred times now. ;o)
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Advice duly taken, there's a metronome at 100 bpm, although you probably can't hear it...
Herb Ellis Bounce Blues 24 Bars..Slowly - Video Dailymotion
First 2 choruses Bounce Blues...Slow as you like.
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Originally Posted by dot75
Nice! If you can make the lines flow---and you do---at any tempo, you can make them flow a little faster. (But a lot of classic jazz blues is played at less than 100 bpm.)
I didn't hear the metronome.
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I still have trouble 'hearing' some of his lines rhythmically, the accents don't fall where I want them to. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
My bad clearly but it makes 'em hard to play...
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Herb had a great sense of rhythm. Sometimes what he's playing is (arguably) not-quite-the-same as what is written in the book. One approach is to find a way to make the line sound good by itself and then work out the nuances. After all, our mission is not to play it exactly as Herb did (-not that there's anything wrong with that!) but to learn good lines, and how they work, so we can use them in our own solos. Originally Posted by dot75
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Just finished "Blues in C" from Swing Blues, one thing I don't understand, why Herb used shapes not from the chord to create lines?
First 9 bars from "Blues in C" is pretty straight forward, if you see C7 use Shape 1, F7 = Shape 3, G7 = Shape 5. Just like he shows us how the shapes are related to the chords from previous examples in the beginning of the book. But when we go to bar 10th, he didn't change to Shape 3 for F7, instead keep using Shape 5, which is a shape related to G chord. Same thing happens to the rest of the song.
Can someone please explain this?
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Thank you tbone, I'm trying to learn all the songs from this book first, without thinking too much about the "shapes" thing. Originally Posted by tbone
Btw, does anyone know where the changes from "Bounce Blues" & "Bay Blues" come from?
According to the tape, Herb said "Bounce Blues" is "the most common progression played by jazz artists."
But I couldn't find this progression anywhere else, all the "jazz blues" progressions are quite different from this one.
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Hi guys,
First post to the forum, long time lurker! So I was inspired by this thread to get the three Ellis books. I really like the premise of using shapes as the foundation for solo lines. Going through the blues volume, I could mostly see how the shapes relate to the lines Herb is playing. It made sense and it was super helpful.
However as I get into the Rhythm Changes book, I'm having a hard time seeing how the shape is really at the root of his solos.
For instance, the book starts out with a bunch of examples over the A part and says that Herb is playing out of the first shape for the first 8 bars.
In my mind, and maybe this is where I go wrong, that means he would be kind of sticking around B flat, playing B flat arpeggios and major scale, kind of how he does in the blues book.
But looking at what he's doing, it looks like he's following the harmony - he's playing C-, F, Bb arpeggios in a way that to my mind would imply he's playing out of more than one shape. At that point is the really just playing that one shape or is something more complicated going on there? Feels like 3 shapes or more.... If someone can help make me make sense of this, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks!
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